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  1. wetware is online now

    Senior Member

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    May 2007
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    Lafayette, IN
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 9:33pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid North View Post
    I am not going to remotely comment on levels of SOF involvement. If you question why then you have never been associated with that world.
    So essentially you can say that you've trained SF personnel, which could in fact be one SF person. Thus making your statement true. Good times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid North View Post
    Wetware: We regularly teach operators with no prior background to be able to respond to 360 degree, no-vision engagement with significantly increased ability within 4 to 6 hours. That is fact. They are doing it and eveyone in the class agrees. With the core concepts in place we can usually get them functioning against multiple attackers within about 40 minutes (and again, everyone agrees it is working) Our Counter MMA method also can be relayed and students are immediately showing significantly increased ability within 2 hours. (Everyone agrees) and... here is the kicker... the method requires extremely minimal maintenance. The reason why people cannot concieve of it being possible is that they are stuck in a mechanical movement skill set mental box... thinking that is the only way to do it. It's not.
    All these statements are very subjective and calling them fact is quite a stretch. It may be fact that everyone says it seems to work, but I'm sure everyone agreed that the kool-aid at Jonestown was delicious as well.

    No argument that there is more than one way to skin a cat, however. I just have extreme skepticism about any system that makes claims as outlandish as yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid North View Post
    No snake oil involved. Happy to set-up an interface if you want to verify it.
    To be honest, I'd be glad to except that I'm a few hundred miles too far away.
  2. Team Python is offline

    Registered Member

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    Indio, Ca.
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 12:13am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The thing about DT courses is that once a person goes through the course if they don't practice on a regular basis they will eventually lose what they were taught. Lets face it not every LEO trains on regular basis nor do they stay physically fit either. I would say about 5 to 10 percent of LEO's in every department actually train in martial arts on a regular basis. I have seen cops come and go in my academy. Not everyone has the discipline to train hard and go through strenuous exercise.

    During DT training it was frustrating having to train people that don't want to learn. Some people don't think they will ever need it or some think the baton or pepper spray alone is all they will need.

    I have seen people get their asses handed to them fighting a 120 lb. tweeker or a drunk gangbanger. It is when they get their asses kicked do they realize that training is important.

    To give a 4 to 6 hours seminar to a bunch of individuals and expect it to work is not the answer. Off duty training is the key. Sparring against live-resistant opponents is the only way to be effective in real fighting. I am tired of these so called reality based martial/WW2 style combative courses coming up and claiming to make everyone victim proof.

    We all know it takes years of training and hard work to become good at self defense. Styles like Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai and every other art where live sparring is a requirement will only work in a real life encounter not some 6 hour seminar where the techniques that are taught are supposedly too deadly to spar with.
  3. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 12:46am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's all I need to know thanks. I can listen to the guys with military tags and LEO tags. You posted on one of the worst websites to try and hide behind the "Off Line" contact excuse. It is really easy to say "Yes, I was in the" military, a LEO, SF or whatever.

    Have fun I'm just going to lurk as I have now said my piece.
  4. Intrepid North is offline

    Featherweight

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    Canada
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 7:46am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Canadian Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Guys... listen... It is not my desire to "fight" with you. Please read this...

    Team Python:

    Couldn't agree with you more. You are absolutely right. That is exactly what one of the main problems is and I have a tremendous amount of respect for DT Instructors who have a very frustrating job in front of them. Alot of times their brass are not interested in investing in the program therefore it really doesn't advance, you have limited time to teach a skill that they can barely produce under peformance stress in the training hall let alone have any hope for reproducing in the face of real interpersonal human aggression. Lord knows the budgets don't allow LEO's to live in the CQB with enough FX to get the proper training done. And then.... there is next to no maintenance training made available... and we haven't even talked about the females and smaller officers that cant make any of it work and are loading the remedial classes if they are even provided... frustrated and not happy campers. We also haven't even touched on the old entrenched guys that had a title from some traditional martial art back in 1983 whom everyone thinks is God and he runs the training with an iron fist because no one else can challenge him there. The reality is its not a matter of how GREAT the instructor may be at his art, by what method can he instill a skill in guys and girls with no background. Any of this sound familiar?

    Team Python: This is what sent me on the direction I have been going on since 2004. My particular background has been in Underwood's DEFENDO and COMBATO systems and I was teaching those systems to LEO's and Mil operators but I WAS GETTING REALLY FRUSTRATED because I couldn't get them to reproduce it fast enough and then it was always a matter of... ok, I like that technique but we would be executing a takedown in a narrow hallway so I would have to initiate control with a weapon in my hand from the front with likely one hand... Errrr.... I love that control but I would be going to handcuffing from there so that would really not work all that well... That technique would be great BUT... we just don't have the time to train that... wish we did.

    I literally dropped everything I thought I knew at that point and took about 6 months and started to research WITH Tactical and Military operators what they REALLY need... what the confines are of their operations, gear, kit, time to train, general ability level and reverse engineered an approach based on physiology (not pressure points). Luckily for me I had some friends with the Ontario Provincial Police Tactics and Rescue Unit (OPP TRU) - very high-speed Canadian group - who gave of their time (amongst others) to really workshop this from THEIR angle combining it with my instincts on how to go about it and Immediate Recall was born. 7 years later we now have a fluid system which is producing very, very siginficant increases in ability in literally hours, its more effective, can be used is highly confined space environments, fully integrates with all levels of UOF option integration and can be modified for essentially almost every special role within another days training AND... they are able to use the stuff next shift out. It's very low profile and even difficult to catch on video so any operators serving in VIP Protection applications immediately gravitate to it.

    I get what you are saying... this is where we have been coming from.
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
    Diesel_tke's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 8:02am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Op, you used a lot of words to say nothing! Good job! You have made a lot of general assumptions about DT programs all over north America. Please do not assume anything while you are trying to interject into our world. We don't appreciate assumption.

    I personally am one of the better trained LEOs that I know. And I know a lot! I have been to many DT classes taught by people who have been there and done that. I have taught a bunch myself. I have been to a few classes taught by people who have never been there and done that. Those classes were always ****! They are the worst kinds of larpers. We see right through the nonsense they are saying. While they talk, we listen. While they demonstrate, we participate. When they leave we laugh at them. When we train we make fun of their "system".

    Don't come on here to promote your "system" and then say, see me offline if you want answers to questions! We didn't call you and tell you to post this on here. You opened yourself up. When you refuse to answer questions, it makes it look like your claims can not stand up to intense scrutiny by people who know the difference.

    The DT that I had in the academy was great. In all the years I have trained since then, it has acted as my foundation for martial arts, and it has proven to be very affective for my personal self defense that I have used many times. The reason some LEOs are not efficient at these techniques is not because they are bad, it is because they learn then in class, then don't practice them again until training. It is not because we were not given some super secret DT system developed by a Canadian who has never walked in between 1200 inmates with one other officer as back up.
    Intrepid North
    Assistant/Leading Instructor in the rival of
    work of Bill Underwood and his original DEFENDO
    (Law Enforcement and Security applications) and COMBATO Systems
    Military Unarmed Combat) 2000 to 2004
    Chief Instructor and Founder of Canadian Use of Force Systems
    and the Immediate Recall High-Stress Combatives System 2004 to present
    Full-time contractor to Canadian and International Law Enforcement and Military assets
    since 2004
    Tactical Assessment-Disengagement Instructor to FIRE and Tactical EMS Professionals since 2008

    This is all anyone needs to know about me.
    No sir, that is not all anyone needs to know. All of the qualifications that you have posted are instructor positions. What IIF asked for is what qualifies you to be the instructor. You would hopefully have trained for many years in some type of martial art before you started teaching. That is what we would like to know.

    For example, I have trained in kickboxing for 10 years, Wresting for 2 years, BJJ for 2 years including the Gracie LEO combatives course, Xingyi for about 8 months, Tai Chi for 6 years, State of Florida Corrections academy, Police academy, Department of Juvenille Justice DT academy, Rapid response team member 6 years, Cell extraction team member 7 years, DOC advanced ground fighting course completion. Notice that my qualifications do not include what I have taught.

    Please post a simple statement that is direct and to the point on what your qualifications to teach are. Do not say, hit me up off line, because you brought this here, we did not ask you to come.

    Then do not attempt to lecture us on what happens after we put on uniforms and badges and then walk the line. You have never done it! Instead, post and opinion and then ask what the veteran LEOs think about it. And if you are not willing to describe your system in detail or post pictures of it, then we are talking in hypothetical! As you may have found out from your experience with LEOs, we hate hypothericals!! State the facts. If you are unwilling to do so, then we have nothing to discuss here.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
    Diesel_tke's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 8:16am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is this they system that your system is based on:

    http://www.defendo.co.uk/Images/dvd-advert.jpg
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  7. Intrepid North is offline

    Featherweight

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    May 2011
    Location
    Canada
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 8:19am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Canadian Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok... It is fake:

    Dude, there is no way I can let this go...

    Are you for real in your response? Honestly????

    I came to this forum because life is so flipping busy between family and work, I have known about it for a long time and figured this would be a really good place to dig, do some research and get some feedback on issues, what else is going on out there and this so far is what I have found....

    Everyone has been hounding me about my personal credentials and NO ONE has taken the time to respond TO WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID ABOUT LEO TRAINING IN MY THREAD!!! Is this a badge wearing club or is there anyone professional enough to dig into the meat of what I said and start to agree or disagree and workshop it through? Holy crap...

    I can understand the desire to confirm bonefides but for crying out loud I didn't make a single comment on who I was, my name, what I do for a living... nothing in my first threads. You had to ask me, I was just trying to throw some stuff out to debate and see what I can learn from you. In fact my first thread in the LE and Mil forum was asking for input on Dillon's Lock-Up System and so far not a single response? I am beginning to wonder how many LE, Tactical or Military professionals really are involved in this forum.

    And PLEASE don't give me this "you are hiding behind an off-line verification of your credentials" crap. With a response like that you are nothing more than showing you don't know what the heck you are doing and how things really work with professionals. Dude, that is SOP.

    This is a really simple equation lads... Have someone contact me that represents your forum off of the web. I connect you by cell phone to guys in both the US and Canada at Federal levels who will verify who I am and what I do. You then are simply able to say, yes... we have checked him out and he is for real... end of story. We are posting threads on a forum here not applying for a job. Objecting to pay for a phone call? Don't want to be proven wrong? Whats the deal? I have even invited a couple of you to come to train with me at no cost. Can't say I am trying to make money off of you and potentially even in the presence of professionals at THEIR training location. This is getting to be really romper room and its starting to waste my time.

    So are we going to do this or not? I am interested in workshopping and discussing tactics and training and what is going on out there... for real. I think you guys have an awesome looking forum and website, you have certainly been around for quite awhile and that says something in my books. So let's dance or I'll head home like a good Canadian boy and watch the hockey game. Let me know.
  8. Diesel_tke is offline
    Diesel_tke's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 8:27am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is mainly because we have people coming on here all the time claiming to be people who they are not. We have had 16 year olds claiming to be SEALs, cops, and FBI operatives. We take nothing at face value.

    We like to verify credentials before getting into a long debate. We also like to verify credentials especially from someone who is claiming to be the founder of a system:

    http://www.combatosociety.com/index.php/history

    Otherwise, anyone can come on here, claiming to be Robbie Cressman, say a bunch off crazy stuff, and then say...ha, ha, just kidding, I'm not really Robbie!!
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  9. Diesel_tke is offline
    Diesel_tke's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Pensacola, FL
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 8:29am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Team Python is a great example! He came on here, said some stuff about LEOs...he was asked to verify who he was. He did that professionally, and then we knew that he was an expert in his field. Pretty easy.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  10. Intrepid North is offline

    Featherweight

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    Canada
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2011 8:36am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Canadian Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No it is not. Clive is a good guy and I did original DEFENDO with him years ago. I was essentially his Instructor but this has nothing at all to do with Immediate Recall or what I do now.
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