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  1. Intrepid North is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 5:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Canadian Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The reason LEO's are not developing DT ability

    Forgive me but it's pretty tough to not throw a blanket statement around in a title box for a thread when you have only a handful of characters to introduce your point.

    That being said, in short, across the board in LE circles (and certainly including SWAT) average officers or operators seem to possess less and less physical ability in the area of open-hand tactics and their integration with UOF options.

    There are a number of very specific reasons for this that most are entirely missing and from my experience it is a lack of understanding of history, being influenced by popular culture and not understanding the massive changes in our current physical culture let alone mission specific needs and outcomes.

    Firstly, our North American combatives essentially came into being in the WW2 era when our boys who generally inherited western boxing and wrestling needed a platform to contend with the arts being faced in foreign theatres. Essentially at that point folks like Fairbairn, Skykes, Underwood, Applegate, O'Neill chose to "fight fire with fire". In otherwords, if the enemy is kicking and punching... we are going to learn a better way of doing that. Although the "dirty tricks" came into the picture essentially making the applications more linear in character they were still essentially... fighting with a horizontal competitive mindset. We will be better with fire than then will.

    From our WW2 combatives we flowed to the introduction of traditional and sportive arts and injected some human performance considerations along the way but the fact is that a "mechanical" movement skillset based on puching, kicking, armbars, joint locks, leverages throws and pressure points CANNOT be adapted to meet our current training and operational outcomes.

    If you doubt this for a moment consider the fact that since the inception of SWAT in North America in 68, 69 why has almost every element of tactics developed massively with the exception of open-hand tactics? Why? Because our current platform was never designed to do so.

    Back in the early days when military guys had a ruck and a rifle and LEO's carried a straight stick and 6-shooter, they had a lot more time to train open-hand tactics and their far more "rough and tumble" physical culture in those days accomodated a tougher training and attitude. Today the situation is FAR different and our current needs are far more specific.

    So, let's cut the crap and "my style vs. yours"... Lads, it's about outcomes... what do LE and Mil. operators really need here and now... I would suggest from an outcome perspective it's the following:

    - They need a method that can be learned within hours and requires very little maintenance training because they don't have much time to train, they are not given the needed time to train.
    - It needs to immediately incorporate full UOF option integration, 360 degree retention, when presented and with "shoot-no-shoot" functionality
    - Needs to be functional when operators are facing physical movement restrictions from gear and kit or for functioning with confined space environments (narrow doorways, hallways, stairwells and in cards, buses, aircraft etc...)
    - Needs to be immediately functional for female or smaller male officers
    - Needs to be low-profile in nature
    - Needs to be able to be modified for any special role within only an additional set of hours (SWAT, UC, VIP Section, K9,Public Order etc...)
    - Needs an immediate Multiple Attacker and Counter MMA skill set

    None of this can be accomplished by our current approach based on teaching and training mechanical movement skills within the trainin times alloted.

    It takes years to become good at striking, throwing and joint locking and once mastered you must learn how to control range, dominate when it comes to positioning and all of that stuff requires an accomodating operational environment where you have ROOM to execute these tactics. (You can't execute most of this stuff on stairs or in buses and aircraft - poor VIP Protection guys and UC's!!!) The moment you lack balance and vision for the most part you are pooched. You cannot "integrate" handheld UOF options with a striking based approach in a dependable manner. If your only definition of "integration" is hitting the person with whatever weapon is in your hand, you have a very narrow skill set. Smaller officers CANNOT use this stuff as they are way out-gunned, it is extremely high-profile as most engagement can be made to look like a beating especially on You Tube.

    Although the aforementioned certainly can be further elaborated upon another very overlooked factor that is NOT being addressed in our current stress-based research is the change in the level and quality of physical culture within current operators.

    If you distill down what we generally take away from stress-based UOF and combat research you usually come away with 4 specific things.

    1) Understand what stress does to the body. From this we can develop counter-strategies.
    2) Learn how to tactically breathe.
    3) Use gross motor movements
    4) Train scenarios as much as possible for innoculation purposes.

    One thing has often been forgotten... The average operator today has had such a degredation of their physical culture that gross motor punches and kicks are NO LONGER gross motor for these people in organic movement experience! Sure, by definition they are big muscle movements but they are no where near as learned for the average person today.

    Again, we are not producing operators with skill sets in this arena because they are not given and don't take the time to train to the degree necessary and the platform they are generally working from was never designed to be learned and functionally used within the current training and operational environment.

    We have to get out of the old "mechancial" movement skill set mental "box" that we have been in if we are going to find solutions.

    If you think I am over-generalizing on the state of affairs in regards to skill level out there. I have not been anywhere in North America yet where out of a team of 10 guys on a SWAT team there is any more than 2 or 3 that actually have a longstanding or very comprehensive skill set in this arena and I am finding its not that far off either in SOF circles.

    We have some work ahead of us and our mindset has to change.
  2. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 8:15pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you currently serving on a police force, and if so, in what capacity?
  3. Intrepid North is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 8:21pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Canadian Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am a specialized civilian contractor from Canada. For the last 7 years my full-time work has been teaching LE and Mil Special Roles both inside and outside North America developing applications often for new and developing profiles.
  4. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 8:32pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid North View Post
    I am a specialized civilian contractor from Canada. For the last 7 years my full-time work has been teaching LE and Mil Special Roles both inside and outside North America developing applications often for new and developing profiles.
    That could mean you train them on computer software. Have you ever been a LEO or a soldier in the armed forces? Define, in at least general terms, "Special Roles".

    You must prove anything you claim on this website, or you will face a ban. If you want to discuss these issues and be taken seriously here, you must provide proof that you're qualified to talk about them.
  5. Lord Skeletor is offline
    Lord Skeletor's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 10:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    That could mean you train them on computer software. Have you ever been a LEO or a soldier in the armed forces? Define, in at least general terms, "Special Roles".

    You must prove anything you claim on this website, or you will face a ban. If you want to discuss these issues and be taken seriously here, you must provide proof that you're qualified to talk about them.
    For one, when it comes to police defensive tactics, you have to realize that most modern police academies dedicate one week (roughly 40 hours) to teach workable hand-to-hand techniques. These techniques cannot likely result in death or serious bodily injury to the dirtbag in question---as "Defensive Tactics" often falls near the middle/upper side of most "Use of Force" continuums. Much of the training goes into contact controls like "gooseneck" and "Keylock" escorts, and not actually fighting properly and safely.

    Most look like something similar to this:

    1. Verbal Controls
    2. Mild Physical Controls (Escorts--Basic Law Enforcement Grasp)
    3. Normal Contact Controls (Keylocks/Goose-Necks, Escort Locks)
    4. Pepper Spray/OC- Tasers- Batons
    5. Defensive Tactics (Knees/Elbows/Groundfighting)
    6. Firearms/Deadly Force

    Nearly all departments frown upon and don't teach "Street Fighting", ie, throwing closed fisted punches, leg/joint/head kicks, and other blatantly offensive/martial-arts style fighting. Nor do they teach chokes, etc...as they can/often result in death or serious bodily injury, opening the department to lawsuits.

    So...given that you have about 40 weeks to dedicate to teaching the cops some sort of kung fu, you're almost destined to fail, as nobody practices the **** and it doesn't appear again until usually the end of the academy when the officer undergoes some sort of "officer survival" training.

    Other academies teach Defensive Tactics in like Week 3-4 and have normal and regular reviews during scheduled PT times (say, instead of running, doing some ground fighting/takedown/cuffing stuff and practicing some forms of contact controls). I kind of like this because it keeps the material fresh.

    However...the big issue I have is the choice of techniques and that we're not teaching the police how to properly throw punches, elbows, knees, and kicks properly. I mean, I don't want to handicap any first responders coming to save my ass or that of my family/friends/neighbors. It's just retarded, if you ask me.
  6. wetware is online now

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 10:25pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Something that teaches someone to fight competently in a few hours is either snake oil, a chipped skill out of something William Gibson wrote or you still have two wishes.
  7. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 10:05am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lord Skeltor, would you please do the honors of confirming whether Intrepid North is actually instructing LEOs?

    Please tell me what I can do to help.
  8. Intrepid North is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 10:12am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Canadian Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sure, as you are asking for some sort of proof, my name is Robbie Cressman. You can find me at www.fightlikeacanadian.com. I travel from Canada and have developed a Tactile based method that is not based at its core mechanical movement skills such as punching, kicking, arm bars, joint locks and pressure points. I am not saying they are entirely thrown out but they must come into the equation in a far more simplistic way after a core method Tactile method has been transmitted. I am a contracted instructor to our Canadian Federal Tactical units essentially across our country and have taught and have had our method adopted an applied by some of our largest municipal SWAT teams and have been involed at essentially almost every level within our Canadian Forces from militia, reg-force, pre-deployment to Afghanistan, at the Battle Schools and others. I have a preferred supplier number with the CF. I am not going to remotely comment on levels of SOF involvement. If you question why then you have never been associated with that world. I teach internationally. I recently returned from teaching my 10th SWAT School for New York Division, FBI at Fort Dix with Tactical Operators from all over New York, New Jersey and other areas. As far as "Special Roles" I teach specifically adapted applications for VIP Protection, UC Operations, Coverts Roles, K9, Aircraft Protection etc.... I teach UOF skills at 2 Canadian colleges both Georgian and Mohawk College (when asked) and have taught loads of Police Academy and Tactical Instructors from a whole variety of geographical regions. I have developed a Counter Defensive Response Training method for professional athletes and have taught it to 2 Canadian NHL teams... Montreal Canadiens and the Ottawa Senators. That's enough of my bio.

    Lord Skeletor, yes, I am very aware of standard Police Academy or College syllabai, where their focus is and how little time they get. You are right. That is a major problem in this scenario. Not enough time and a greater focus on control tactics. This is exactly what has put us in what I call "The Perpetual Liability Cycle" which has LEO's unconsciously making higher level force choices because they don't have organic confidence in their ability and it only equals increasing health and safety and legal liability issues.

    Do you realize how many sizeable agencied DO NOT do any annual training at all? Suffolk County in New York, for example, is a huge agency with a ton of money compared to NYPD and others and they don't hold on-going training there in DT after the academy at least since I was there last teaching a school at their academy. On the west coast there are a number of sizeabe agencies that have abandoned all other training but firearms because of the economy. Yeah, its a problem.
  9. Intrepid North is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 10:28am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Canadian Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wetware: We regularly teach operators with no prior background to be able to respond to 360 degree, no-vision engagement with significantly increased ability within 4 to 6 hours. That is fact. They are doing it and eveyone in the class agrees. With the core concepts in place we can usually get them functioning against multiple attackers within about 40 minutes (and again, everyone agrees it is working) Our Counter MMA method also can be relayed and students are immediately showing significantly increased ability within 2 hours. (Everyone agrees) and... here is the kicker... the method requires extremely minimal maintenance. The reason why people cannot concieve of it being possible is that they are stuck in a mechanical movement skill set mental box... thinking that is the only way to do it. It's not.

    No snake oil involved. Happy to set-up an interface if you want to verify it.

    I am in Toronto and you are more than welcome to come up to visit as a guest at no cost and I will prove it works in a civilian training setting, if you are LE or Mil. I could see if I can bet you clearance to join us in a training. I will probably be down in New York/ New Jersey again in late September. If you are LE then I can see about having you invited to the training, if not and if I am running a civilian training on the side I will invite. Happy to stand behind my claims... have been doing it making a living full time for about 7 years now. If any of your STAFF want evidence of my identify and claims, contact me off-line and we can sort that out.
  10. Intrepid North is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 10:55am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Canadian Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also looking forward to hear about your level of expertise. I am available off-line anytime if you would rather do that, you can contact me through the website I posted. Whatever you are most comfortable with.
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