Stumbled upon this gem on a karate forum, figured I'd share.
Personally I find the initial post of the topic retarded and offensive.
How do you define "martial art"?
Last edited by Kriegsmaschine; 5/26/2011 6:29pm at .
That entire forum sucks, so it doesnt surprise me when their individual articles suck. Art is such a subjective term anyway, there are some people who think throwing paint at canvas is art.
Why would you take offense? I don't understand what is so offensive. Because he said that practitioners of MMA are not artsy? I personally think he's wrong. I had a conversation with a boxer, who refused to accept my belief that boxing is a martial art. He was insistent that martial arts were all Asian in origin. Now a boxer may not be driven by the art aspect of his craft, but that doesn't make it any less of an art form.
I think there does need to be a division somewhere, between fighters, and MMA tools who buy all the Tapout merchandise and white sunglasses just to get chicks. Most of those guys are basically Jersey Shore rejects who do nothing more than lift weights and hit a cardio kick-boxing or MMA conditioning class once or twice a week. They emulate the guys making sacrifices and putting in the time to tune their craft. They see a submission move on pay per view and think it's just that easy and strut around with their new found knowledge and ability to kick a lot of ass. I mean after all, their abs are coming in nicely, and now that spring is here, their tan is starting to take.
I worked with a guy who was convinced, he would be fighting in the UFC in little over a year, after starting to train at a MMA gym. He had never trained in anything before. Not even wrestling in high school. Yet he believed he would be in the spot light in a year because he knew fighter names and technique names. He could spout off stats about people and matches, sang the praises of BJJ and Muay Thai over other systems, and was considered an authority on the subject in our circle of friends. He however wasn't a fighter, or an artist. He was more a poser, who was duped by a gym into believing within a year or so he would be gunning for a championship belt. That was until the gyms golden boy dismantled him sparring and injured him enough he couldn't work or train for a while. I think he and some others were just mat fodder, so the gym's champ could have a fresh supply of meat to throw around.
To say, though, those who are grinding it out and sacrificing to learn the craft and develop their abilities aren't martial artists is absurd. To say this about someone, who gives so much of himself to a craft or art or calling, and to allow some fat guy who schedules his Karate, Aikido, or Kung Fu night in between his bowling league and beer runs, to be called a martial artist is crazy. I wouldn't be offended though. Martial Artist is just a label. You don't need it. Who cares what some guy on some forum says. Keep training and shoot for your goals whatever they may be.
lol People think there is nothing "artistic" about MMA because they flat out don't understand it. Most of these people have never stood toe to toe with a cagefighter and definitely have no proficiency in this scenario.
Grappling for instance, any person who doesn't understand groundfighting, scoffs and whines when the fight hits the mat, they say it isn't artistic, it's stalling, it's just leg humping or nuthugging each other, (among other things). However I'm sure these guys have never rolled with someone who is truly an artist of grappling. I'm sure there are similar critics of striking, though I can't imagine either being too prevalent anymore, considering the popularity of BJJ and MMA clubs.
This isn't news, people have been trying to say that Mixed Martial Artists aren't martial artists for a long time. And the only question that matters in this scenario is "who really knows how to fight here and who is lying to themselves (and other people) so they can continue their circle jerk larpfests and tell everyone they know how to fight (but they can't cause they don't want to kill anyone)?"
Though I do agree there are definitely idiots and tools who are fans of mma, but there are idiots and tools in every art, case in point with the douchebag who wrote that.
All awesome points, thanks.
Last edited by Kriegsmaschine; 5/26/2011 7:43pm at .
...and once again an mma/bjj fan/practitioner reinforces the meathead stereotype.
is that referring to me?
Originally Posted by It is Fake
Originally Posted by Kokikai90
He defined what it meant to him, said MMAers are skilled, and that it is not art. He further clarifies it by saying it doesn't fit "HIS" definition of "art." I mean it is actually a fairly reasoned debate. That doesn't make him a douchebag.
1. It has been previously stated (on Bullshido) that Martial Arts are “Martial”, implying they are for combat/war/real fighting.
a. This can be modified to a conditional statement : If a style is practiced for real fighting/combat/war, then it is Martial.
2. Mixed Martial Arts (the sport) is a fairly reasonable representation of a realistic one on one fight.
3. Therefore, Mixed Martial Arts (the sport) is Martial. By 1,2 Modus Ponens
1. Meriam-Websters Dictionary : Art : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
a. This can be modified into a conditional: If skill in something is acquired by experience, study, or observation, then it is an art.
2. Mixed Martial Artists constantly study, practice, and observe their arts in order to apply them in an MMA setting.
3. Therefore, Mixed Martial Arts is an art by 1,2 Modus Ponens.
Therefore, Mixed Martial Arts are both Martial and Art, not just in name, but in practice, by both conclusions and the rule of Conjunction.
I don’t know if this follows the typical argument format for Bullshido, but this is my reasoning so I don't sound like a meathead.
Last edited by Zerstörer90; 5/26/2011 8:05pm at .
Ah, I see where I failed there. Thank you for the insight. Sorry for calling whoever that was a douchebag. it was undeserving in the context presented.
Originally Posted by It is Fake
Also I remember Kintanon mentioning something to the effect of "Just because it is an opinion doesn't make it right". I feel that applies here. I understand that art is something subjective, but that being said him saying something isn't art isn't necessarily true. In that because everyone is right in the subjective sense, it must be looked at objectively to find which is a stronger argument, hence the definition in my argument.
Last edited by Zerstörer90; 5/26/2011 8:17pm at .