I think that learning with the sleeve grip allows to focus on proper kuzushi and especially on creating and then closing space, with the lapel grips beginners would tend to muscle it much more. At higher level less space is needed.
(OSPF: since you ask, it's "ad nauseAm")
Thank you sir.
Originally Posted by creativo
I was taught lapel-side ISN as a follow up to other throws. Either if your initial throw failed, or fake the initial throw and follow up with lapel-side ISN. Often times I would find it easier to get inside with the lapel grip rather than the sleeve grip which would have me starting a bit farther away to begin with.
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I was taught from the sleeve, but a lot of guys at my dojo only do it from the lapel.
I've tried it and it was easier to get for me.
We do both sides as a combination at my dojo and we work on both lapel and sleeve grip for the throw.
On the other hand, Morote-seoi-nage from double lapel is harder for me than a classic grip.
An old, japanese trained American serviceman from the occupation days taught us that the sleeve grip from ISN was a holdover from JJJ days, in which the technique was a no-gi grip of the wrist, and the arm was twisted laterally, (thumb facing away from the body). This resulted in the throw snapping the elbow.
In terms of spiking some idiot in a self-defense scenario, adding to the lapel-version by also training arm-only covers idiots who aren't wearing lapels. The nightclub I work has lately relaxed its dress-code and we see more douchebags in shirts that wouldn't carry anyone like a jacket might--and then there are the morons who, as soon as it's on, rip off whatever shirt they're wearing. One might think of arm-only as a sort of "no-gi" version of the throw.
You don't really need the "lapel" to throw from there.
It's easy to show in person but quite hard to describe, you gather/curl up the material at their shoulder/armpit. You actually end up with a grip very similar to that of a shuai jiao player.
I think Inoue uses it a lot, I'll have a search on youtube to see if I can find something for you.
Last edited by Lu Tze; 5/27/2011 2:25pm at .
Reason: Clarity. Also spelt shuai jiao wrong (again), can't we just rename it to Chinese Throwing to make it simpler?
I don't think we have it wrong "in the west". Competition wise, the lapel or armpit grip tends to work better because of the tighter control which requires a little less timing/sense of debana. I've trained with Japanese guys and the all did both.
I teach the sleeve side first. I experimented with teaching the lapel side version first, but beginners/novices had a much harder time with it. They tend to jam in too close, which is a common mistake on the lapel side version. The sleeve side throw better illustrates the principles of the throw, and fits well with the normal tsurikomi action. I introduce the lapel side as an experiment and judge to see when a student is ready to tackle it.
I do not teach Morote Seoi first, as I find it causes problems with elbow control for normal tsurikomi. I remember posting about this on JF and no one else seemed to have that sort of issue with it.
Lapel side is a great option that in my opinion everyone should know, especially as a opposite side throw. It is a good way to work on coordination to the opposite side without the complications of switching grips.
Sounds like maybe somebody else needs to practice it.
Falling for Judo since 1980
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Wow, really interesting; I'm gonna try this "original" ISN tomorrow at practice. I've always struggled with ISN (but not drop ISN) - I have a feeling that this version might feel more natural.
If you look at the kata, the Nage no Kata you can see the real intent of ippon seoi nage.
Even if it is important, Judo hasn't been thought as a sport but rather as a development of the jujitsu it is extracted from (not talking aout BJJ here ;) ). Same goes for ippon seoi nage.
A logical sequence when you are both right handed could be: Dodge/block the attack with the left arm -> atemi (hit) ->ippon seoi
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