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  1. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    6/11/2011 1:11pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nysanda View Post
    Kudos to anyone that gets on a mat, in a ring or in a cage, but I hope that you did not put up that video as a representation of high level san shou/san da.
    It's a regional tournament. No, they don't look anything like people close to an amateur title or international competition.

    I can dig you up some higher level Tai Chi people in San Shou if you want?
    Last edited by Cullion; 6/11/2011 1:30pm at .
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  2. captainbirdseye is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/11/2011 2:47pm


     Style: JJJ/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    I can dig you up some higher level Tai Chi people in San Shou if you want?
    I'd like to see that.
  3. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    6/11/2011 3:09pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.oxfordwudang.com/lotus-sweep-sanshou/
    ^ I don't think this one is on youtube

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  4. captainbirdseye is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/12/2011 5:20am


     Style: JJJ/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for that Cullion.

    I don't have much experience of kung fu, and zero of tai chi, but to me that looked like every san shou/san da match I've seen before.

    Is this just a case of rulesets breeding certain techniques, or am I missing the tai chi because I don't really know what it looks like?
  5. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/12/2011 6:10am

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     Style: Tai Chi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think maybe you're expecting the Tai Chi to look like something really distinct and classical. The moves in the form are mostly really large exaggerated versions of the actual applications (a lot of them throws).

    Double leg, hip throw, foot sweeps, basic body & leg kicks, it's all in Tai Chi.

    The only difference you might notice if you watched a lot of Tai Chi people fighting in San Shou is a tendency to make more use of wrestling and takedowns rather than adopting a kickboxing-like approach. A lack of high kicks, and plenty of kick-catching.

    It looks like that even when people who've never trained in anything except Tai Chi compete in San Shou.
    Last edited by Cullion; 6/12/2011 6:15am at .
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  6. captainbirdseye is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/12/2011 7:19am


     Style: JJJ/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're right, I was kinda hoping it would look like that.

    I know about push hands, and have heard of shu jiao (spelling?), but are there any CMA-specific grappling competitions?
  7. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/12/2011 10:36am

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     Style: Tai Chi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You mean grappling in the context of groundwork ?

    None that I've ever heard of. CMA are all about trying to remain standing.

    A lot of the mockery CMA practitioners have brought on themselves has been from claiming that they either can't be taken down (often by making silly claims about how all shoot attempts can be defeated by striking the spine, or by unstoppable neck-crank techniques), or that some flowery compliant locking techniques called 'Qin Na' can compete with live grappling arts on the ground.
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  8. captainbirdseye is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/12/2011 3:08pm


     Style: JJJ/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shame, I know I'm derailing the thread here, but how does your Tai Chi compare to your BJJ training?

    Do you take both out of interest, or to fill holes the other art leaves out?
  9. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/12/2011 4:04pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I'm much less experienced with BJJ than I am with Tai Chi, just a few months in with BJJ.

    Tai Chi is all standup, and all the BJJ so far has been on the ground. Even the higher grades usually seem to start sparring from their knees. I haven't actually seem them practice takedowns or takedown defences, but a lot of them cross-train in other things (one of the blue belts has a background in Boxing and my style of Tai Chi, some of the others are into Judo, Muay Thai or Karate).

    The type of physical conditioning is different, both in pacing and apparent purpose.

    The 'health' side of Tai Chi is mostly what you've seen before, forms that involve relaxed movement and stretching. Sometimes it can be more physically demanding than it looks if you have to hold a difficult posture for a long time, or if you're doing a weapon form several times in a row (we do those fast). I do go to these classes quite often. I look on this stuff the way a lot of the BJJ people use their yoga classes. It helps with those niggling aches and pains. It keeps you limber on your 'rest' days. This is the stuff I'll still try to do when I'm 70.

    The martial side of Tai Chi has it's own odd looking traditional conditioning exercises bundled with it. These tend to be intensely anaerobic in nature, almost to a Tabata cadence. We do a lot of wrestling (just takedowns and clinch, no ground game) and padwork too. It's lots of intense cardio and activity specific strength, done in intense spikes then with periods of 'active rest' whilst you watch somebody else's bout, or just cool down and recover with a gentle exercise or some technique work.

    I quite often feel like I'm being brought to the verge of throwing up (I have seen young, fit people throw up in our martial Tai Chi classes).

    BJJ feels like you're kept going at a more consistent level of effort, it's less 'spikey'. I don't quite get to that 'oh god I'm about to throw up' peak, but then I also get a lot less rest. Perhaps this is because the rolling is more self-paced and I'm really trying hard not to 'noob spazz' with people.

    I also feel like muscular endurance is being worked a lot. I really feel the lactic acid building in a lot of muscle rarely used outside BJJ. The BJJ warmup also involves more muscular endurance work like pushups.

    Although Tai Chi doesn't do groundwork, I don't specifically do BJJ to fill holes, I do it just because an old friend is a purple belt, taught me a little for free and I enjoyed it. Now I'm a member of this MMA gym I'm weighing up whether to try the Muay Thai class.

    I'm in my mid 30s so I'm way past the point where I'm going to be 'a contender', but standup work is my favourite, and we don't practice kicking much in Tai Chi.

    I have to think about finding time, whether it's worth cutting back on BJJ etc..
    Last edited by Cullion; 6/12/2011 4:11pm at .
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  10. captainbirdseye is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/12/2011 5:12pm


     Style: JJJ/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good stuff, thanks for taking the time to reply.
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