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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 8:42am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1cinomed View Post
    I know it's not very old (nor is any karate) but, Kyokushin is very intense and you use almost everything in kumite. The World Oyama (Kyokushin offshoot) honbu dojo is near me and those guys train very hard and don't seem to put much emphasis on kata.

    There is also a Akayama Ryu Jujutsu dojo here that trains very hard as well. I have a friend that trains there and with a local BJJ black belt and he says everything is applied full speed against non-compliant partners after the technique is covered.
    Apropos of nothing..
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 8:48am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Witty1 View Post

    I think that's the question the OP is asking.. what happens when you actually use these techniques that are taught in TMA's in the ring? Why practice for years all these techniques that are centuries old only to throw it out when fighting?
    This is a completely different question than
    If any traditional martial artists (regardless of style) have attempted to use the techniques from your Forms, etc. in fighting and was successful, I for one would love to see some video of this. I think everyone here could learn a great deal from it, and it would bring on a good discussion.
    Read Cullion's post and search out all the threads titled "forms" and "Kata." You will quickly learn the OP and your post have been discussed ad naseum and that they no longer bring "good discussion."

    Yes, there are videos of techniques from forms being used; even the flashy ones. No, fighting does not look like forms as life is rarely a kung fu choreographed movie as most people, making these assertions, want to see in real life.
  3. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 9:04am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Money.

    We would like to think that what we are doing is special and the way we train is better than other people but the truth of the matter is that it is not. Most instructors who proclaim TMA are not TMA but modern dance or cardio exercises. They have taken the principles of martial arts training and made them consumable to the masses. Taebo being the main one.

    Here was a C level actor who does a martial art style that resembles the floor exercise of gymnastics. He put some hip hop music on and started doing shitty karate moves and BAM he made more money than most Judo instructors will make in a life time.

    I'm I jealous, sure a little bit but he made a living doing something he loves and I have to respect him for that. If the people who pay him are stupid enough to follow him then so be it. Personally I would not like to teach a bunch of blind sheep, I prefer students with their own minds.

    Most guys have pointed out that many if not every non Chinese MA were created after WW2 even Judo was almost lost during the war. Not to say the techniques have not been around longer but the systems, philosophies, methods, arrangement or collection of techniques are something entirely new.

    Then the commercialization of MA in the 70s and 80s has given us what we see today. I spoke with the head of a TKD org back in the day about how he trained and learned under Gen. Choi. He said it was rough and hard and not everyone could do it. So they decided to take the techniques and develop a method of teaching and training that would appeal to more people. In turn this would allow them to make money as MA instructors. It worked and they have a very large org and live quite well.

    Then there are those of us who seek out the truth and want to test ourselves. This is really the true traditional martial artist. We do not slavishly follow dogma but push the boundaries of ourselves and the training we have received. We want to answer the most fundamental of all questions. "Is what I am doing with my life worthwhile?". In doing so we break our bodies and alienate our family and friends. In the process we find other like minded individuals who seek the same answers and we work together to improve ourselves and others around us. This is the tradition of martial arts and the true nature of the human spirit.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  4. Witty1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 9:25am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Video

    Let's keep in mind that the point of this thread is not to rehash whether TMA have full contact/live sparring.

    The question being asked here is, is it possible to actually USE the techniques from traditional martial arts in live sparring with a non-compliant person? And if you are a traditional martial artist, have you attempted to use the techniques when it's time to spar? Or is it thrown out?

    After viewing as many of the videos on the CMA forum, I did not see any of the traditional flashy circlular techniques used in those particular sparring videos. Instead, in most of the videos, while live-sparring they seem to fall back to a sort of basic boxing/ kick-boxing/ point tournament style of movement.

    Of course, each style will be different.. and I think a lot would be gained by discussing whether or in what way all of them are used in live-fighting. Not to pick on one art or CMA, because this is about TMA's as a whole..but just to get the ball rolling..let's just take as an example Tai Chi.

    Tai Chi Techniques:








    Tai Chi Sparring:





    After careful analysis, I do not see the techniques that are taught in the Tai Chi Forms and basic movements, etc.. being used here at all. They have reverted to basic boxing/kickboxing/point-tournament fighting.

    To answer the OP's original question of what it would look like if the traditional techniques are actually USED in sparring.. In the case of Tai Chi, it looks like this:



    The guys at the start of the video are actually using their circular traditional Tai Chi techniques in sparring.. but, with each other (compliant) in a Tai Chi class.

    The question is, what happens when they spar that way outside the training hall, with a non-compliant opponent. Again, this is not meant as an attack on Tai Chi, or CMA specifically.. we can compare techniques and show whether they are used in actual live-fighting.. and also Japanese, Korean and other arts and whether the actual techniques from the Forms, Katas, self-defense practice is USED or Thrown Out.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 9:34am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Witty1 View Post
    Let's keep in mind that the point of this thread is not to rehash whether TMA have full contact/live sparring.
    No one said that did they?

    The question being asked here is, is it possible to actually USE the techniques from traditional martial arts in live sparring with a non-compliant person?
    No, that is your interpretation of the post. There are at least three questions in that post. The one you are addressing is a very minor point.

    After I cherry pick my videos, I am going to make the same unoriginal argument as the OP
    Fixed.

    Yes, this argument and discussion is very old. Basically, fighting does not look like a kung fu movie, or insert so called TMA of your choice, nor does it occur exactly like kata, forms or poomse. Flashy techniques can and do work and the basics look similar across the board.
  6. Rzero is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 10:08am


     Style: G-safe Krav Maga / TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kelvis View Post
    I would really like to hear some intelligent dialogue in regards to this.
    Here? :PFFFTCCHCHCHHFFFTTT
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 10:12am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rzero View Post
    Here? :PFFFTCCHCHCHHFFFTTT
    Yep, there are quite a few threads. Oops.
  8. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 10:27am

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, you can see a variation on the cloud hands "block" in the "light sparring" video in 00:22-27, and again at 2:30,-2:35, "brush knee" at 1:34, and a number of other moves/techniques not listed by Witty1 across that bit of practice.

    Of course, both those sparring sessions clearly were limited to striking, and about 70% of what goes into a taiji form is designed to be used either as or along with standing grappling. (Taiji is all about cheap shots once you're tangled up with someone.) A better question might be, what moves or ideas from a form can be seen in this video:



    Or in this plain ol' school practice:



    Or in this competition, which does have an odd rule-set and wonky brackets, but which is a better example than the light sparring Witty1 presented:

  9. kelvis is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 10:34am


     Style: NONE

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    No one said that did they?

    No, that is your interpretation of the post. There are at least three questions in that post. The one you are addressing is a very minor point.

    Fixed.

    Yes, this argument and discussion is very old. Basically, fighting does not look like a kung fu movie, or insert so called TMA of your choice, nor does it occur exactly like kata, forms or poomse. Flashy techniques can and do work and the basics look similar across the board.
    Witty1 interpreted my post correctly. I'm not talking about fighting like it's a Kung Fu movie or using "flashy" technique like in a movie. I'm opening a dialogue about my observation of techniques being taught, and yet not practiced in non compliant training, and to me this doesn't make sense. I invited folks on the forum to lend some insight into this, and I tried to be clear (fail) on what I was asking for in my initial post. @IIF, considering the styles listed in your profile, I would assume that you actually could lend some useful information on this. Do you/have you ever tried to fight using the styles you learned, or do you pretty much go into kickboxing mode?
  10. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 10:41am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    Qi Jiguang commands you to cease these flowery methods and practice real Quan!
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