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  1. Ming Loyalist is offline
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar

    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2011 6:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonestar View Post
    Isn't sparring a comparatively recent invention as well? Padded gloves haven't always been around.
    sparring has been around at least as long as the ancient greeks, as have padded gloves, called himantes

    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  2. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2011 6:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Anyway, regardless of what style you do or where it comes from, the western idea of "martial arts" comes from Japanese budo. Budo is the way of the warrior - which is different from bujutsu - the techniques of a warrior. To follow budo is to improve yourself by living like a samurai of old. In other words, to larp.

    Martial arts, traditional or otherwise, has always been about lapping. Learn to deal with it.
    j

    Budo is not necessarily larping. Also, your characterization of budo is a bit off base, overly broad. No doubt some who would claim to do budo today are larping.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2011 7:15pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kelvis View Post
    Good answers so far. The point, as I've already pointed out, is that people who CURRENTLY train in what is considered Traditional Martial Arts obviously are missing the boat compared to those who train in MMA style. I actually did some training in American Kenpo. There are so many techniques to that style that it will make you go crazy trying to remember them, but in theory, they make sense. At the same time though, they spar using kickboxing methods, and they train techniques for belt levels. That is the point. What purpose does it serve to train techniques if you don't practice them in an alive fashion. I think that originally it was trained a lot harder and therefore useful. I don't think that larping was the goal.
    I chose to try use what I consider older martial arts as an example because they were obviously developed for fighting purposes. @ TheMightyMcClaw, I am assuming that there are martial arts that are very old and can be dated a few centuries ago. The question I posed is about training within the TMA specifically older ones, and how it was at it's origins as compared to now. Obviously many have evolved.

    To those already in the know, I have watched the Matrix, Enter the Dragon, and all of Big Poppa Steven Seagal's movies, and now I will share that I watched an entire Chuck Norris Marathon, and lived. Learning to deal with "larping" it isn't something I feel I need to "learn", just a serious question in the history of Martial Arts and the way they are perceived in today's arena.
    As others have pointed out, you are not really talking about martial arts when you write about what people train in today as TMA.

    In Japanese arts, the true cultural martial arts are koryu bujutsu/heiho. Those are not really widely practiced, and were designed to and used as true fighting arts.

    So your premise is basically flawed.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. 1cinomed is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2011 7:17pm


     Style: JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know it's not very old (nor is any karate) but, Kyokushin is very intense and you use almost everything in kumite. The World Oyama (Kyokushin offshoot) honbu dojo is near me and those guys train very hard and don't seem to put much emphasis on kata.

    There is also a Akayama Ryu Jujutsu dojo here that trains very hard as well. I have a friend that trains there and with a local BJJ black belt and he says everything is applied full speed against non-compliant partners after the technique is covered.
  5. theTRASHman is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 12:24am


     Style: Taekwondo, Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Although I'm new here, I've been lurking for years. Over those years its become apparent that the whole TMA vs MMA thing has been beaten, bruised, monkeywrenched, turned inside out, chainsawed, jackhammered, and repeated ad-nauseum. Can't we just say that it boils down to the school/gym and how they train? At this point, deriding entire styles is meaningless. Some TKD/Karate/KungFu/Insertyourstylehere schools are hardcore, while many others are, well, you know. Beyond the school and its training methods, its individual. Sure certain styles lend itself to Bullshido more than others, but when are we gonna move past tma vs mma?
  6. Rickko is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 12:50am


     Style: Muay Thai & Bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Everything was new once.
    I can imagine when the Okinawans first started working out the principles of Naha-Te that some wizened old bugger would laugh at them & say
    " What do you need that fancy rubbish for,just hit 'em with a rock...works for me "
    Give it 100 years & no doubt people will be throwing scorn on the effectiveness of what is effective now,& mma guys may be trying to defend their art using modified chun arguments...
  7. ADM is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 1:32am


     Style: Kyokushin Karate / BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I better let Omega know that his TMA styles are useless.
  8. Rivington is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 1:54am

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonestar View Post
    Isn't sparring a comparatively recent invention as well? Padded gloves haven't always been around. The old gong fu practitioners that you are thinking of did not have the option of hard sparring.

    Haha, no.
  9. Witty1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 4:24am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My first martial art was Chinese Kenpo Kung Fu. We were taught very flashy and circular techniques, which were used in Forms (kata) and compliant "self-defense" drills.

    At the end of each lesson was "open sparring" with light contact. I noticed that regardless of the rank of the person fighting, everyone reverted to point-style (tournament) sparring.. all of the flashy circular techniques and compliant drills went right out the window. The circular blocks and "complex" striking of Kenpo disappeared.

    I've noticed the same thing in TKD and other MA classes.. where the down/middle/upper block are trained a specific way, then used in Forms and "one-steps" But not a single time have I seen anyone of any rank performing these while sparring.

    I think that's the question the OP is asking.. what happens when you actually use these techniques that are taught in TMA's in the ring? Why practice for years all these techniques that are centuries old only to throw it out when fighting?

    If any traditional martial artists (regardless of style) have attempted to use the techniques from your Forms, etc. in fighting and was successful, I for one would love to see some video of this. I think everyone here could learn a great deal from it, and it would bring on a good discussion.
  10. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2011 6:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's a video thread in the CMA subforum of kung fu hard/full contact sparring.
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