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  1. shotfghter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 4:38pm


     Style: Street Focus Jiujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hatsumi has his way of doing things. It is not just Swordsmanship that he is practicing, he integrates many things aside from swordsmanship. My example was to show that sometimes the other side can see things differently, BJJ and Judo value different things.

    I think the point is being missed here. To My knowledge Kendo, and Kenjutsu are compared often. Kendo is an art that primarily revolves around the "Sword". Meaning the same for Kenjutsu, with the difference of kenjutsu allowing more parts to be struck. So both are "Sword Styles". Hatsumi is teaching something different, not only is he doing sword strikes, he is also doing rope, spear, and unarmed strikes. In his curriculum he has to incorporate all things.

    All I am saying is that the Bujinkan member is valuing a different set of thinking, than the "Pure sword" person of Kenjutsu. The main person in the thread is arguing speed, but that's how hatsumi teaches stuff, and technique wise - the OP in the thread makes really valid points about efficiency of motion, but Hatsumi moves differently, he thinks differently. That's just my opinion though.
    Last edited by shotfghter; 5/22/2011 4:49pm at .
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 4:50pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shotfghter View Post
    Hatsumi has his way of doing things. It is not just Swordsmanship that he is practicing, he integrates many things aside from swordsmanship. My example was to show that sometimes the other side can see things differently, BJJ and Judo value different things.

    I think the point is being missed here. To My knowledge Kendo, and Kenjutsu are compared often. Kendo is an art that primarily revolves around the "Sword". Meaning the same for Kenjutsu, with the difference of kenjutsu allowing more parts to be struck. So both are "Sword Styles". Hatsumi is teaching something different, not only is he doing sword strikes, he is also doing rope, spear, and unarmed strikes. In his curriculum he has to incorporate all things.

    All I am saying is that the Bujinkan member is valuing a different set of thinking, than the "Pure sword" person of Kenjutsu. The main person in the thread is arguing speed, but that's how hatsumi teaches stuff.
    If they are flawed Principles then they are flawed. They don't magically disappear because of "incorporation." You just gave an excuse for the third leg of Judo." Teaching other things doesn't excuse you from screwing up fundamentals regardless of focus.
  3. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 5:04pm


     Style: 空手 / &#2147

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hatsumi is just fucking something up. That's what 9chambers pointed out. Not something that's debatable like 'differing views on technical approaches' just plain: fucking up.

    guy in hasso (high stance)
    Hatsumi sword sheathed
    guy waits
    Hatsumi draws and cuts
    guy attacks.

    Do you see the flaw?

    No-bujinkan-ass-kissing version

    guy in hasso (high stance)
    Hatsumi drawing sword
    guy kills Hatsumi
    everyone happy
  4. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 5:04pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shotfghter View Post
    Case and point, I do BJJ and Judo. Well when I grapple against High level Judo players, they give their backs. They want to break the pin,they're taking it easy on me, they think its safer, whatever.

    Is a BJJ guy going to say "Well they're doing it wrong, fundamentally it isn't right!". They better not, because these are Olympic level athletes. it's just the way Judo plays.
    What you're describing is a contest strategy that's effective under the ruleset of judo. No, it doesn't work too well outside of that context... but that's beside the point.

    What the OP is describing is more fundamental, akin to doing a triangle choke with no arm trapped, or attempting a hip throw with your centre of balance higher than uke's... these things would be incorrect in any context, it's not a matter of opinion.
  5. shotfghter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 5:05pm


     Style: Street Focus Jiujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I could also understand what you mean by fundamentals. You have to squeeze your knees together for an arm bar, and not cross your feet as well. It the SOLID way to do a arm bar. I am in complete understanding, and you are right.

    The thing is Hatsumi is not just teaching one art, hes teaching a bunch. His speed and way of teaching is a little different as well, hes an old man. But even if I was tough on Hatsumi, his attacks are not solely based on counter with swords, at any given time he could drop his sword and go for a groin strike or a hip toss. Sure we can look at this this specific technique in a vacuum, and say "It's wrong (based on kenjutsu), it's slow, and why is he even teaching it in this fashion". But the art as whole is not just dependent on swordsmanship.

    The whole "his students" don't even try and attack argument has been overdone and I won't even go there. What matters is that the kenjutsu guy says that some of the things he is attempting requires mind reading, or knowledge of the future, as well as the attacker himself attempting a move that is somewhat unrealistic. But it's just a move, its situational.
    Last edited by shotfghter; 5/22/2011 5:44pm at . Reason: Misunderstood a previous article.
  6. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 5:09pm


     Style: 空手 / &#2147

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=shotfghter;2550227 The thing is Hatsumi is not just teaching one art, hes teaching a bunch. His speed and way of teaching is a little different as well, hes an old man. But even if I was tough on Hatsumi, his attacks are not solely based on counter with swords, at any given time he could drop his sword and go for a groin strike or a hip toss. Sure we can look at this this specific technique in a vacuum, and say "It's wrong (based on kenjutsu), it's slow, and why is he even teaching it in this fashion". But the art as whole is not just dependent on swordsmanship.
    [/QUOTE]

    This specific example concerned two swords, i didn't see any other weapons involved. So, sword vs. sword = sword technique, right? As an utter noob in a sword art (hell, I still have to learn itto kata properly) I can assure you: when you are training swords, something like throwing a groin strike or a throw becomes fairly unattractive. Has something to do with the opponent having this long razor in his hands.
  7. shotfghter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 5:13pm


     Style: Street Focus Jiujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    What you're describing is a contest strategy that's effective under the ruleset of judo. No, it doesn't work too well outside of that context... but that's beside the point.

    What the OP is describing is more fundamental, akin to doing a triangle choke with no arm trapped, or attempting a hip throw with your centre of balance higher than uke's... these things would be incorrect in any context, it's not a matter of opinion.
    Is he? He is arguing that the guy is doing it slow. Man how we've argued that for centuries. It's a situational technique and hatsumi has a weird way of teaching stuff.

    .Why do you think the Uchidachi would even bother to move if he saw Hatsumi drawing first? He has space, he has the lead, and he has a superior position...For a cut..But he waits...What's "fine" about that?

    Or more to the point, what is this teaching? (The "sudden movement" certainly doesn't "stall Uke" it causes him to start his attack..An attack that has already failed..)
    Bujinkan is a completely different style, and has different movements, and handles more situations. The OP is looking at the situation in a Vacuum, and not considering other options available to the Bujinkan guy even though we are learning this one technique. You're right, fudamentals are sound across the board, but this isn't a case of fundamentals, its a case the bujinkans fundamentals vs the kenjutsu fundamentals, that is, the bujinkan operates under different rules so it doesn't have to completely follow kenjutsu rules and is open to other alternatives.
  8. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 5:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shotfghter View Post
    The "Third leg of judo" is a completely different thing here. He was a Judoka who was teaching Judo and nothing but Judo. THEN I could understand. I could also understand what you mean by fundamentals. You have to squeeze your knees together for an arm bar, and not cross your feet as well. It the SOLID way to do a arm bar. I am in complete understanding, and you are right.
    The 'third leg of Judo' was taught by a guy who had never actually trained any Judo and held no qualifications nor had any ability to teach Judo.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 5:15pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotfghter View Post
    The "Third leg of judo" is a completely different thing here. He was a Judoka who was teaching Judo and nothing but Judo.
    He also had rank in other arts and that's my point. He was also teaching TKD and Hapkido you know DIFFERENT arts from Judo. So, using your argument the third leg would be okay because, that isn't his only focus. He would have been fine, to others but people here, if he called it Morton-Do and used your current explanation.



    The thing is Hatsumi is not just teaching one art, hes teaching a bunch.
    No he is not. He knows a few teaches each ONE as a appropriate.

    His speed and way of teaching is a little different as well, hes an old man. But even if I was tough on Hatsumi, his attacks are not solely based on counter with swords, at any given time he could drop his sword and go for a groin strike or a hip toss.
    No. This happens in any art and your fundamentals stay the same. If he strikes with a sword, moves into a FMA groin strike and does a Jujitsu throw all of those will REMAIN fundamentally sound. So, A judoka or Jujitsu guy would see a proper throw. A kendo or Kenjutsu person would see a proper sword strike. Then whatever style you name would understand the fundamentals of a groin strike.
    Sure we can look at this this specific technique in a vacuum, and say "It's wrong (based on kenjutsu), it's slow, and why is he even teaching it in this fashion". But the art as whole is not just dependent on swordsmanship.
    There are fundamental things that are wrong. Saying that it isn't wrong because he does a mish mash of techniques is incorrect.
  10. shotfghter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2011 5:22pm


     Style: Street Focus Jiujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    The 'third leg of Judo' was taught by a guy who had never actually trained any Judo and held no qualifications nor had any ability to teach Judo.
    You're right, I apologize, When I read that the USJA was allowing him to reapply I thought he was exaggerating his rank. Apologies. I still think my point stands, in a vacuum, yes it looks a little suspect. But it's a situational technique, thought in a grandmasters way that is a little different. If the Kenjutsu guy feels its useless, it's his opinion. A well respected opinion.

    Has something to do with the opponent having this long razor in his hands.
    Dude he fights people with ropes and claws. He rolls out of the way of swords, its a different way a looking at things.
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