Silat style question.
I may have the opportunity to study Pangian Langkah Empat Silat, Cimande, & Harimau. Can anyone with experience in these arts give me a little information on what they are like? Are anyone of them good for building one's health and can they be done late into one's golden years?Thanks.
the harimau is the ground tiger a feared and very effective style of silat used while standing or on the ground has ripping and tearing techniques along with breaking of bones the cimande is a very powerful silat system which is very effective dealing with multiple oppenents typically attacking upper and lower body at same time langkah empat has angular foot work which is from tribal dance very effective will compliment any system of silat when this foot work is combined with the jurus if your instructor is well versed in these systems of silat you are in for a treat self defense wise and health wise peace
Oh, do we have to do this?
Please provide some evidence that cimande is "very effective dealing with multiple oppenents". A link to some footage showing a cimande expert handling two or more resisting opponents in an alive setting will suffice.
The Lankgah Empat system seemed pretty interesting to me, if somewhat basic and a little cryptic. I have some DVDs and a CD that you could have if you'd like.
This description would send me running away as fast and far as possible.
Originally Posted by hammer333
reguardless, id say your best bet is to research it a bit. then check a class out. then decide.
I have no experience with Pangian Langkah Empat Silat so I can't help you there, but I have done Cimande and Harimau in the Mande Muda system and in Dan Inosanto's Majaphait system.
One thing to keep in mind about Cimande and Harimau is that there are multiple versions of those styles. So there is not a single Cimande or a single harimau. That being said each style is native to certain regions in Indonesia so there are some general similarities.
For Cimande, the Mande Muda system's version of Cimande had a lot of punch catching and arm smashing drills. Some of it looked almost wing chun like though much more aggressive and power based, typically ending with smashing your forearm into someone's neck. There was some stick work in Cimande as well, though pretty basic.
If you are doing hard cimande training, it will smash the **** out of your forearms until they adjust to it. I would expect some bruising and swelling based on my experience, though that is probably the hardest part of the training physically. Though if you build up to it your body will adjust. I would agree with the earlier poster that it is a power style, though I never did any multiple opponent stuff in the Cimande I learned. That may be a stylistic difference.
I have done harimau as a sub-system of Mande Muda and within the Majapahit system. As an earlier poster said, it's a low to the ground style that moves in a variety of crouching/sitting postures. The basic strategy is to drop low against attacks and attack the opponent's base to take them down and try to strike or break things once they're down. It's not really a grappling style because it's too loose for that, but it has some grappling elements mixed with striking elements. Some styles make use of a southeast asian weapon called a karambit for their harimau system, you can search youtube for karambit videos.
Since you mentioned your golden years, I would not recommend harimau as a style for you, unless it's very different from what I've seen. The low postures and transitions can be rough on the joints, which makes it harder to learn for someone who's older and may have less flexibility/joint issues. If you decide to learn it, listen to your body and make your instructor aware of your limitations so you can build up to the exercises. A good instructor can adapt it so it fits your fitness/mobility level, though not all instructors will do that.
One note on the low Silat styles is that they often focus on landing safely in (and fighting from) unorthodox ground positions. Legs twisted and crossed over, etc. This takes into account the tendencies for various Silat langkhas to rob the balance at strange angles (not easily softened by breakfalls). Besets or sapu can slam a guy down like a judo reap. The low stuff is not gentle on the joints, but is a great exercise program for core and flexibility.
IMHO... Remember the maxim that "Without the blade there is no Silat". Like Kali, though often taught with empty hands, Silat is truly intended as a weapon-based art. Techniques should easily be transferable to blade applications.
This description of the art sounds a little alarming to me. Most likely this poster did his weekly google search of said style and this thread appeared, said poster did his best to make the style sound impressive. Any style that relies on brute force or cheap shots to overcome an opponent is likely a BS style. Legit styles emphasize the dominant position and how to get there. (see Judo,BJJ, or good ol' wrastlin') I.E. once you have a dominant position you can do all the dirty moves you want. But if you try said dirty moves from an inferior position you're likely to piss off an attacker and unnecessarily escalate the situation which will likely end badly.
Originally Posted by hammer333
Silat 'styles' can be a bit misleading; often teachers make up their own, which is not considered to be a bad thing but part of the process. Within that there are some rules of thumb. Styles with 'harimau' in the title refer to the harimau, or Sumatran tiger, and they tend to use low postures - I mean LOW. Put 'Silat Harimau' into Youtube and see. There are exceptions though - Silat Harimau Berantai, for example, is not a harimau Silat style. Huh? Yeah. Broadly, in Harimau Silat expect a lot of ballistic takedowns - flying at the other person and landing on top of him, throwing in bizzare ways that make it, as mentioned above, very hard to breakfall out of, and throwing from one joint lock into another.
Cimande I don't know a lot about. I trained briefly with a Cimande group and they practiced an imitative animal system with strong mystical elements - 'posessed by the spirit of a tiger' etc. This is common in pre-Islam Silat and I don't believe in 'posession' in this sense - but some people that do are scary fighters. This is not to say another style of Cimande will be the same - or even similar.
Langkah means 'footwork.' All Silat styles have 'Langkah,' or footwork drills, but some styles emphasize it more than others.
Really, it's not like a choice between Kyokashinkai and Shotokan Karate - codified, standardized systems that exist, as it were, independent of their practitioners. You're not choosing a car, you're choosing an mechanic. The only way to really judge is to go and see. Silat can be a bit mystical and as in any section of the martial arts world there is bs about. I'd box, wrestle or do Judo for a while before you go down - say six months? It'll give you a base to judge whether what's being taught is nonsense or not from. Any Silat system will be fine into your 'Golden years' if you start gently and work into it. However fit you think you are expect the ground forms to be exhausting... but they are pretty good joint rehab and if you have low back pain it may well disappear entirely as hip girdle muscles are lengthened and strengthened. Here are some Silat videos:
Some fairly good Harimau Silat (Indonesian):
Guru Jak Othman being scary with a knife:
This is a video showing some different styles - which you can see have pints in common but are very different:
Silat Fitrah - Malaysian descended system, showing a few different elements of Silat practice - dance, partner work etc:
I hope this has actually been helpful.