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  1. serey is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2011 10:37pm


     Style: Freestyle Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    sugar ray robinson also used calisthenics exclusively. would ali and robinson have been goats if they "lift weights"? of course! resistance is resistance.

    skill work is the main focus for a fighter. everything else is supplemental. training is relative to a fighters needs. quit focusing on the tools use, but rather the athletic quality desired.

    you honestly think when these boxers perform pull ups they are not weight lifting? Fedor Emelianenko is another prime example of "playground training". and he's the goat of mma.

    it shows you that it's not so much about the tools. focus on the holes in your game.
  2. Franco is offline

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    England
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2011 11:04pm


     Style: Weightlifting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
    Thats what I thought too. I always lifted in the past and had great results/ gains in speed and power. I was just told by some more experienced fighters that it can slow and tighten your skills. They focus more on skill and ease of motion to win fights. But, for me weight training seems like it would help with my fighting and like you said, muscle is body armor. So do you go with heavy weight low rep, or mid weight mid rep, or low weight high rep? I want overall power and speed, but dont want to put on a ton of weight.

    Training is not as simple as 5x5 or 5x10 or a combination of sets and reps. You want to obtain certain objectives, increase speed, explosive strength, absolute strength and stamina/GPP are all equally important

    There are six elements of strength, those are, quickness, explosiveness, speed-strength, strength-speed and absolute/max strength.

    With fighting, the sports main goal will be speed and explosiveness and absolute/max strength will be secondary but bother are important and closely related.

    The conjugate/westside barbell method is the best way of increasing all types of strength, but depending on your own ability you would be better off starting with a more begineer program (if you're not squatting 1.5 x bw, benching 1 x bw and deadlifting 2x bw, i would go with Mark Rippetoes starting strength over westside)

    lifting 2 x a week would be the best option, 3 may lead to over training depending on how often you train martial arts and imo 1 is not enough.
  3. Travis17 is offline

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    Mar 2009
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 1:20am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The problem I see with weightlifting and fighting is that it appears to be mostly experimental at this point. There doesn't appear to be a universal way to train with it in MMA. At my school the muay thai coach is against it. I talked to another grappling coach about it and he recommended low weight, high reps.

    I also think if you're a beginner at weightlifting, you're likely to put on at least a little weight from gaining some muscle. I just don't see how you can't unless you starve yourself and try to maintain your weight, but that's just going to hurt your strength gains and martial arts training, as you won't be recovering as quickly.

    I watched the GSP vs Shields countdown and it showed GSP weight training with a world class sprinter. Now if sprinters lift weights/do squats etc, and their whole thing is speed then that would suggest weights help. But you have to get to certain point where the bigger you get the slower it's going to make you. Otherwise bodybuilders would be the best sprinters and heavyweight fighters would be quicker than smaller fighters right?

    So basically I'm wondering where that point is where weights maximize speed and don't hinder by causing you to gain muscle that will slow you down.

    Just thinking out loud I guess. Not sure there is anyone really knowledgeable in both here. It would just be nice to know what I was doing exactly.
  4. alex is offline
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    STOP POSTING!

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 4:24am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Travis17 View Post
    The problem I see with weightlifting and fighting is that it appears to be mostly experimental at this point. There doesn't appear to be a universal way to train with it in MMA. At my school the muay thai coach is against it. I talked to another grappling coach about it and he recommended low weight, high reps.
    your muay thai coach is wrong. this is a simple fact. lets talk about it.

    I also think if you're a beginner at weightlifting, you're likely to put on at least a little weight from gaining some muscle. I just don't see how you can't unless you starve yourself and try to maintain your weight, but that's just going to hurt your strength gains and martial arts training, as you won't be recovering as quickly.
    you equate not gaining weight as starving? are you the ever expanding blimp man or something?

    this guy is 62kg (about 135 pounds) and is squatting 200kg (440 pounds)

    there is no reason why you cant be strong without putting on weight, it really is a very simple energy in vs energy out. it is not possible to gain mass, fat OR muscle, if you are not taking in more energy than you are putting out. so your body will find otherwise to increase strength, through your CNS. you are also wrong about beginners, in fact weight training for a beginner is probably one of the biggest things you can do to HELP your training, because the gains are fast, you generally DONT build muscle in the first couple of months (your body doesnt like to build muscle if it doesnt have to, so it will get everything else firing efficiently first)

    I watched the GSP vs Shields countdown and it showed GSP weight training with a world class sprinter. Now if sprinters lift weights/do squats etc, and their whole thing is speed then that would suggest weights help. But you have to get to certain point where the bigger you get the slower it's going to make you. Otherwise bodybuilders would be the best sprinters and heavyweight fighters would be quicker than smaller fighters right?

    So basically I'm wondering where that point is where weights maximize speed and don't hinder by causing you to gain muscle that will slow you down.
    YMMV. these bigger guys arent slower because they have a lot of muscle- they are slower cos they have more mass to lug about. this is an important thing to remember. also, bodybuilders dont train to sprint, but the BB i do know that incorporate sprint training can fucking haul ass like nobodies busniess. go check out the 40 yard dash times of some of the big guys in the NFL.
  5. Travis17 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2011 5:14am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm kind of exhausted and didn't write that correctly. When I said starve, I meant take in less food than your maintenance to prevent muscle growth/weight gain. If you're not taking in your maintenance it's going to affect your recovery. At least it does with me and others I've talked to/learned from.

    Everything I've read on strength training has said that when starting you should eat a surplus for the best gains in strength training. If you eat less than your maintenance you'll stall more quickly and see less strength gains. There was an article on GOMAD for Starting Strength (can't find it), I think by Rippletoe, where he talks about complaints he gets from people who don't eat enough in gaining strength and seeing results doing his program.

    I wasn't aware beginners don't put on muscle generally. I always saw results within a couple months of weightlifting, when starting up or changing to a new workout. A few guys I've talked to at the gym talk about not lifting weights so they don't gain weight. Generally these guys are pretty cut and probably have really low body fat percentages so I'm guessing if they weight lifted long term they would eventually add some muscle to their weight and they wouldn't be able to lose the weight needed to get to their fighting weight. But I don't know. That's the impression I got from them.

    If a guy has 12-15% body fat and starts weightlifting, he can probably cut the extra weight he gains through fat loss pretty easily, right? But if a guy has a low fat percentage, like 5% and he puts on weight it will be a lot more difficult to lose weight without burning the muscle he gained, right?


    Also, yeah I realize those guys in the NFL can sprint quickly. Just my point I was trying to get at is a stronger muscle contracts faster right? But at a certain point you lose speed through an increase to mass, right? So at what point does this happen? I mean there is a reason why the fastest sprinters aren't 250-300 pounds right? At least this is what I was theorizing.
    Last edited by Travis17; 5/28/2011 5:18am at .
  6. fightclubfreak7 is offline

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    Boone, North Carolina, United States
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2011 11:39pm


     Style: MMA, BJJ, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lifting weights burns calories, burning calories causes one to loose weight! Eating a calorie surplus is what will make a person gain weight, it doesn't matter if they lift or sit on a sofa all day.
  7. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 11:44am

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a strength coach by profession, and proper weightlifting benefits you in ALL aspects of life. I own a gym where we do weight training for fighters, so I have a lot of experience in that area.

    High-weight, low-reps, as was said earlier. Jim Wendler's 531 program is an excellent place to start, also mentioned earlier. Conjugate method (Westside) puts a little too much strain on the CNS for it to be applicable to fighters IMO, unless they are experienced lifters as well. I always emphasize hip squats (for proper striking stance), grip work, and neck work for fighters.

    The pinnacle of all lifts for combative sports guys are the snatch and clean-and-jerk. We do a ton of that here. However, it takes a lot of patience to learn, and not everyone has the patience to learn it properly. O-lifts are incredible for increasing speed, power, raw strength, and proprioceptive awareness... the list goes on.
  8. November is offline

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    Jun 2011
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2011 12:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The basic thing to remember is that you need a real program. You're trying to maximize your strength per kg mass, which means you want to focus on myofibrillar gains rather than sarcoplasmic gains which means high weight low mass. You're also not going to become slower unless you put on serious amounts of weight, which isn't going to happen unless you let it happen.
  9. Rabiddog is offline

    Featherweight

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    Apr 2011
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2011 12:09pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't lift weights, Lift cheeze.
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