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  1. tao.jonez is offline
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    Ninja Fruit

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 11:38am


     Style: JKD, Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iainkelt View Post
    I just think that some, not all by any stretch but some, of the criticism that Eddie and 10th planet gets from BJJ guys/instructors is basically professional jealousy. He's taking jiu-jitsu in new directions and all the sudden you get kids who want to learn things that some instructors simply don't know and it's a turn off to those kids (even if that's stupid and harmful in the long run) who then lose interest. I've seen numerous local instructors, and guys who are very solid BJJ players, talk trash about 10th planet for years then all the sudden when they realize it isn't going away, guess who I see with a copy of Mastering the Rubber Guard and is trying to show Eddie's techniques?
    There seem to be a few gems in the system; functional techniques that is. But from my perspective, the 10P system is promoted as a whole new thing when it doesn't work without the fundamentals that came down through the Gracie Machado lineage to Bravo.

    I don't know how you guys actually train, I'm talking about perception.

    That and Bravo is perceived as re-packaging old stuff as new stuff. Twister & Lockdown for example.
    "Never trust a quote you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln



  2. Iainkelt is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 12:45pm


     Style: 10thP/BJJ/Wrestling/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tao.jonez View Post
    There seem to be a few gems in the system; functional techniques that is. But from my perspective, the 10P system is promoted as a whole new thing when it doesn't work without the fundamentals that came down through the Gracie Machado lineage to Bravo.

    I don't know how you guys actually train, I'm talking about perception.

    That and Bravo is perceived as re-packaging old stuff as new stuff. Twister & Lockdown for example.
    Agreed. I think that you really need to have fundamentals in place before you start trying to play some of the more esoteric stuff, whether we're talking about 10th planet or the latest guard craze in BJJ. But the flip side to that is the reality that jiu-jitsu is, or should be, constantly evolving and changing and growing. When it stops is when it declines and becomes static and outdated. Resistance to change when done simply because people don't like "new" things, is in my opinion very dangerous.I understand the perception out there about 10th planet just being a lot of gimmicks and in some cases of individual grapplers it's probably fair. I just don't like seeing some of the broad generalizations is all, when I know that a number of very talented and experienced grapplers have built 10th planet techniques into their game.

    I'd also agree about the perception about repackaging though in Eddie's defense he has, to the best of my knowledge at least, been very open about the fact that the twister (as "renamed" by Rigan as I recall)came from freestyle wrestling and that the lockdown is basically a judo move that he picked up. He just has built a game around those moves in a way that other people haven't, or at least not to that extent. I agree that he has marketed and built his image a lot, but in that regard I don't see a difference between himself and the Gracies. They just did it first and now don't like others singing out of their hymnal and dipping their hand in the collection plate.
  3. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 1:32pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Virtually all the distaste for 10P I have heard has been, not dislike of the material, but with noobs who attempt to use it as a substitute for learning proper fundamentals. I’ve never heard anyone claim that Bravo or 10P advocate doing this, but it’s nonetheless annoying when beginners pull out crazy **** that falls apart without a solid platform.

    The other dirt I’ve heard has been, not of Bravo’s technique, but of his marketing.

    Quote Originally Posted by tao.jonez View Post
    That and Bravo is perceived as re-packaging old stuff as new stuff. Twister & Lockdown for example.
    I’ve heard one Brazilian instructor mention Bravo’s name in disgust: “He says he invented rubber guard, pheh”, saying that he saw somebody compete in the World’s with rubber guard back in the 80’s. You also have things like this site (reference to same event? No idea):
    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Whitfield
    As more and more fans entered the sport, Eddie Bravo released two more books. These books are two of the nicest, most professional looking books ever produced on jiu-jitsu and they promise to make anyone that reads them actually be able to tap their opponents just by looking at them (slight exageration). Lots of people buy these books and they freely buy Bravo's claims that he invented the Rubber Guard. Eddie Bravo might have invented the term Rubber Guard, but Nino Schembri was winning World Championships using the Rubber Guard when Eddie Bravo was only a blue belt.
    Googling Nino Schembri will turn up a lot of sites claiming that he invented the rubber guard. I’m not qualified to comment on veracity.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  4. Shawarma is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 1:37pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I see it, the problem isn't Eddie Bravo at all. The problem is white and low blue belts who watch a few YouTube videos of his moves and then waste way too much energy unsuccessfully trying to pull them off in sparring since they lack the solid basics you really need to be able to start doing funky ****.

    Effective but unorthodox fighters like Bravo, Imanari and Sudo didn't start learning flying heel hooks and rubberguard on their first day, they had years of training in basics before being able to win with such tactics. A lot of low-level grapplers seem to forget that.

    Edit: Bleh, Petter beat me to it.
    Last edited by Shawarma; 5/13/2011 1:41pm at .
  5. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 1:38pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iainkelt View Post
    I agree that he has marketed and built his image a lot, but in that regard I don't see a difference between himself and the Gracies. They just did it first and now don't like others singing out of their hymnal and dipping their hand in the collection plate.
    Well, so what? I don’t think anyone around here is going to deny that some of the Gracies have done some pretty sleazy marketing; we prefer to laugh at “moralmente VITÓRIA DE HÉLIO GRACIE"'; at least they now call it the “kimura” rather than, say, the Heliocopter shoulderboulder. (Though to be fair, “the Gracies” is pretty broad, and I think we can agree that some branches of the family and some people in particular are rather more notable perpetrators than others.) None of the faults of any or all Gracies alters what Bravo does.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  6. CoffeeFan is online now
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    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 3:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I eagerly await both those matches!
  7. GIburner is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 4:12pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you think Royler has studied up on Rubber guard or any other element of Eddie's game before the match? to what extent?

    is there a 10th planet book sitting somewhere in Royler's bookshelf?
  8. tao.jonez is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 10:08pm


     Style: JKD, Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GIburner View Post
    Do you think Royler has studied up on Rubber guard or any other element of Eddie's game before the match? to what extent?
    Enough to say "if that **** puts his shin across my throat, I'll break his ankle"
    "Never trust a quote you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln



  9. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2011 1:57am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Virtually all the distaste for 10P I have heard has been, not dislike of the material, but with noobs who attempt to use it as a substitute for learning proper fundamentals. I’ve never heard anyone claim that Bravo or 10P advocate doing this, but it’s nonetheless annoying when beginners pull out crazy **** that falls apart without a solid platform.

    The other dirt I’ve heard has been, not of Bravo’s technique, but of his marketing.


    I’ve heard one Brazilian instructor mention Bravo’s name in disgust: “He says he invented rubber guard, pheh”, saying that he saw somebody compete in the World’s with rubber guard back in the 80’s. You also have things like this site (reference to same event? No idea):
    Googling Nino Schembri will turn up a lot of sites claiming that he invented the rubber guard. I’m not qualified to comment on veracity.
    Here's the full article:

    http://www.jiujitsuforums.com/wiki/E...vo_-_the_facts

    (edit: didn't see the hyperlink in the original post)

    No offense, but this sounds very angry and butt-hurtish.

    - Eddie gives props to Shrimbri and others regarding the Rubber Guard. Again, he didn't invent it, he systemized it.

    - Eddie explains in his books that the Twister was a wrestling move called the Guillotine (but his instructors nicknamed it the twister since there is already a choke in BJJ called the Guillotine). Although not an invention, again, he systemized it for BJJ.

    - Eddie explains that the Lockdown is something he remembers picking up and wasn't sure where. It wasn't until later that he found out it was an old Judo move. Once again, he seystemized it for BJJ.

    Decided to check out his site:

    http://www.trianglejj.com/

    Hmmm, me thinks he may not be impartial.

    The problem with the criticisms is that they tend to come from those on the "other side" or who may have something to gain from discrediting the man. It would be like all the criticisms of Windows coming only from the Mac-heads and Linux geeks (did I go there, yeah, I went there).

    Anyways, whoever wins, who cares. Maybe one of Eddie's students will avenge him if he loses. Then one of Royler's students will avenge him. The next thing you know, we have a great rivalry which will probably cause a huge technical advancement in BJJ.

    Oh, after the match, they will both go to get high, eat at Five Guys, and have a laugh at how they played everyone...(Quinton Jackson/Rashad Evans-style)
    Last edited by datdamnmachine; 5/14/2011 1:58am at . Reason: (edit: didn't see the hyperlink in the original post)
  10. Finnegan is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2011 9:59am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    Again, he didn't invent it, he systemized it.
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    Although not an invention, again, he systemized it for BJJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    Once again, he seystemized it for BJJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    It would be like all the criticisms of Windows coming only from the Mac-heads and Linux geeks. (did I go there, yeah, I went there)
    Well, since you went there . . .

    It sounds like we're in agreement that 10thPJJ is not innovative or revolutionary but that EB repackaged and heavily marketed concepts/ideas that are not his own.
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