5/19/2011 3:43pm, #81
I think it's important to point out it's not really accurate to say it's a circulatory OR nervous effect when in fact the passout effect (syncope) is the result of a feedback loop involving both (a systemic effect).
We're talking about an effect that is occurring in two separate systems that feed into each other (circulatory and nervous) simultaneously, not one after the other, from a SINGLE external force (neck strangulation).
Applying the proper neck pressure in the right spot is essentially causing a big disagreement with those two systems, and the time you spend asleep is the time it takes for them both to normalize.
Otherwise you get into the "chicken and egg" argument of what comes first, constricted arteries and HIGHER blood pressure OR baroreceptors/vagus response and the resulting LOW PRESSURE, when in fact these are atomic events (i.e. they happen at the same time). So it makes sense for creativo to say "pressurizing the neck restricts bloodflow" because that is correct, but not the sole reason for syncope because that effect can only come when both the nervous and circulatory responses to strangulation "kick in".
So putting this in science-ey terms:
- More physical pressure on the neck arteries = high BP = faster vagus response = (low BP) + (baroreceptorized, poor oxygen content blood) = sleep
- Closer physical pressure to vagus/sinus = faster vagus response = (low BP) + (baroreceptorized, poor oxygen content blood) = sleep
High blood pressure causes the vagus response, which is to lower pumping rate of the heart rapidly (and thus pressure). You can get a blood pressure drop and syncope from having generally high blood pressure, or just COUGHING HARD. The vagus is what tells your heart not to explode while it tries to pump all that blood around your (now pressurized) circulatory system."hey buddy there's some congestion up ahead...you might want to slow down for a minutes...that's right...lay back...try to enjoy this..."Local blood pressure around the vagus definitely plays a role, everyone can (hopefully) see from the diagrams that the vagus connects right into the arteries. So the closer constriction is to the vagus, the more effective the choke.
Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/19/2011 3:57pm at .
5/19/2011 4:57pm, #82
So my totally uneducated answer would be that it requires both.
5/19/2011 5:22pm, #83
5/19/2011 5:37pm, #84
5/19/2011 5:45pm, #85
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Lafayette, IN
5/19/2011 6:38pm, #86
temporary restriction or disruption of airflow through the trachea
temporary restriction or disruption of bloodflow through the common carotid
temporary disruption of synapse to the primary organ (heart or brain) of the neural fibres through the vagus nerve
5/19/2011 9:08pm, #87
Then again, based on the description, I'm pretty sure I've never experienced vasovagal episode during a choke being applied.
5/19/2011 9:21pm, #88
I've never been unconscious from submission before, but I'm pretty certain I've been close a few times. The room starts to get smaller and smaller.
5/19/2011 11:01pm, #89
Why wouldn't you have experienced vasovagal response, since it's part of everyday (non-judo) strangulation?
Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/19/2011 11:21pm at .
5/19/2011 11:08pm, #90
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
I have come across the theory of restricted blood flow out of the head causing high blood pressure and then unconsciousness before and thought it made sense.
Arteries (which take blood away from the heart) are generally deeper within the body, while the veins which return it to the heart are shallower. Being shallower, the veins can be more easily restricted by external pressure, unlike the deeper arteries.
When you put a tourniquet on a limb, you can see and feel the higher pressure as more blood is pumped in than can easily get away. Try it on your finger. It quickly gets pumped up and red. A bit like the look of a guys face undergoing a tight RNC (the tourniquet in this case).
I've been looking at some anatomical images of the neck on the net. It's a bit hard to tell what the difference in depth is between the jugular vein and the carotid artery. Either way, veins are thinner and more flimsy tubes than arteries which is another factor that makes them easier to restrict with external pressure.