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  1. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2011 11:50am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    I feel nobody had read my posts (with videos and medical papers included).... except Snake (but he doesn't count). Is an AHDH epidemy running wild there or what?
    who are you, again??

    D. Carotid Sinus Reflex
    Give a little explanation as to the "hows" on how this would work. I view it as a similar suggestion to my "blood-brain barrier" suggestion, but would certainly like to read your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    A rapid nervous response (combined with the sudden loss of blood pressure) aligns with the observable physical symptoms c
    Observable by whom?
    If it is observable by the person being choked, it would be a symptom.
    If it is observable by others, it would be a sign.

    not wanting to be pedantic, just wanting to know your frame of reference on this. Would there be visible flushing or blanching of the skin? Or would it be only phenomenon describable by the choked OR measured by a medical professional using equipment?
  2. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2011 11:56am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    C. The flow of blood out of the brain is restricted causing a pressure difference that causes a KO.
    I have never been choked out completely, but have been close many times before tapping. Personally, I feel like my head is about to pop as I start to go out. Due to how quickly I have had them sunk on me, I thought it was more related to blood pressure than lack of blood.

    That being said, I am definitely not a representative sample of an average bjj or judo player - I'm very thin and have a heart condition.
  3. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2011 11:59am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    I think we can come to an educated decision based on experience, knowledge and logic to prove or disprove a theory common to martial arts training. No one has come on and said yes without a shadow of a doubt here is why it happens here is the absolute proof AND can answer any question that arises regarding their facts.

    I am simply offering theories to be shot down to come to a rational answer to a question that I have. This is not about being right or wrong but about learning something together.

    In case you haven't noticed I am bored at work and these exercises are keeping me entertained. Its the end of the year and students are working on projects so I just walk around going "Looks good keep going."
    We can certainly talk in our general understandings or own personal experience on the subject, but there are just so many variables that for every 'certainty' there will be another poster with a counter experience, so the only way we can progress will be for you to begin this experiment on your students.

    With video.

    So, what are you waiting for.....get to choking.
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2011 12:15pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    Observable by whom?
    If it is observable by the person being choked, it would be a symptom.
    If it is observable by others, it would be a sign.

    not wanting to be pedantic, just wanting to know your frame of reference on this. Would there be visible flushing or blanching of the skin? Or would it be only phenomenon describable by the choked OR measured by a medical professional using equipment?
    I was referring to observations by a third party of what you see when you watch someone get choked out with the "blood choke", how a "symptomatic chokee" is observed to behave.

    The person getting choked would have a very poor idea of what is happening to them...their primary processing unit (the brain) is starved of oxygen. When they wake they get a rush of euphoria that further disguises the sort of low level circulatory shock their body just went through.

    So what are we left with short of hooking up an EKG and blood saturation monitoring (my wife had this done during labor)?

    There are a couple of immediate signs/symptoms I can think of:

    - Observable loss of consciousness within seconds, but only when the choke is applied correctly.
    - Flush skin definitely
    - Victim (commonly) euphoric upon regaining consciousness

    That last part is something I can attest to occurs during vasovagal syncope...immediately after nearly/partially passing out from it, I felt an intense euphoria, orgasmic, in fact. That is not an embellishment at all, in fact it's in line with the research referenced earlier on women reaching orgasm through the vagus nerve ONLY. Those nerves near the carotid (vagus and sinus) sure seem to be keys to maintaining the body's conscious state.

    I found myself sitting on the floor of my basement...but didn't remember sitting down. I had slumped against a wall (thankfully) and hadn't hit my head on anything. No pain, no crazy heart rhythm, just a few minutes of extreme relaxation as I tried to remember what the **** had just happened.

    Then I remembered the coughing fit.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/12/2011 12:25pm at .
  5. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2011 12:36pm

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    I seem to recall Sifu Jason is/was a medical student. He would be a good one to have in this thread.

    But the key seems to be the relationship between this particular nerve and the organs it interacts with and its secretion of neurotransmitters.
  6. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2011 1:23am

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    I have been nearly choked out (D'arce from side control) and have nearly passed out twice due to Vaso Vegal response (post-procedure reaction).

    The vaso vegal responses each occurred after epidural injections to try to treat my then-herniated discs. After the procedure, I sat in a recovery room in a chair. Out of nowhere (literally over the course of 5-10 seconds), I felt light-headed, my blood pressure dropped like a rock, and I began to see stars. I had to fight to stay conscious while they reclined the chair and shot me full of 2 different drugs. I didn't pass out, but it was freaky.

    The nurse explained that my body over-reacted to the procedure (mixed sympathetic and parasympathetic response), which caused fast and massive dilation of large blood vessels (specifically, the ones in the legs). Blood drained from my head and 'pooled' in my legs. Getting me horizontal helped to redistribute the blood back through my body (as someone else mentioned, feinting and falling down is the body's way of doing it without a fancy lazy-boy medical chair) and the drugs constricted the blood vessels to force more blood back into my upper body. My blood pressure slowly returned to normal. Funny things happen when they jam needles in your spinal canal.

    Now, I know that is all anecdotal, but my follow-up question is this:

    Does the orientation of the person's body (horizontal, vertical, reclined, etc...) have any bearing on how quickly the person can be choked out?

    Does it result in a faster choke-out if the person is standing? Or is it faster if they are laying down?

    I'm wondering if the vagus nerve 'agitation' results in much the same reaction as I experienced post-procedure. The onset was incredibly quick and was similar in feeling as that incredibly tight D'arce choke.

    Also, for the medical professionals, how long can blood remain oxygenated should a person hold their breath? If being choked out is due to lack of oxygen, then does it take longer to choke out somebody who can hold their breath longer (can remain conscious with less oxygen in their blood)?

    My guess is that loss of consciousness comes from the vagus nerve being agitated as oxygen deprivation seems to take a lot longer to cause harm to the body/brain.
  7. creativo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2011 3:58am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was always told that the immediate loss of consciousness is a vasovagal response, triggered by the baroreceptors in the carotid sinus. That's why a proper strangle will put you out in seconds, much quicker than what the lack of O2 to the brain would provoke.

    It would make sense that pressure spike would be more dramatic when restricting the flow coming out from the brain, opposed to the flowing in.
  8. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2011 12:03pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My next follow-up question:

    If the fast loss of consciousness is due to the vagus nerve and baroreceptors, is it required to apply pressure to both sides of the neck to 'choke somebody out'? Or can the response be triggered by compressing only a single side of the neck?

    This question is very interesting to me because I have had success in choking people on only one side of their neck. I've been told that doing it that way only results in a neck crank and a 'pain tap', but the people in the choke have said otherwise.

    Is it *required* to apply pressure to both sides of the neck to elicit a vasovagal response?
  9. creativo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2011 1:39pm


     Style: Judofitness

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    When you squeeze the neck in a strangle you are hampering bloodflow thru many vessels, not just the carotid, and this contributes to the buildup in pressure. I think that's crucial in getting the choke, otherwise we'd have ninja chokes done with a fingertip just tapping shut the carotid?

    Note this is just a somewhat informed guess, IANAMD
  10. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2011 1:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    My next follow-up question:

    If the fast loss of consciousness is due to the vagus nerve and baroreceptors, is it required to apply pressure to both sides of the neck to 'choke somebody out'? Or can the response be triggered by compressing only a single side of the neck?

    This question is very interesting to me because I have had success in choking people on only one side of their neck. I've been told that doing it that way only results in a neck crank and a 'pain tap', but the people in the choke have said otherwise.

    Is it *required* to apply pressure to both sides of the neck to elicit a vasovagal response?
    both sides of the carotid bifurcate to left and right side, internal and external carotid arteries which feed both the facial and cerebral arteries, thus a choke to either the left side or right side are essentially cutting off approximately 1/2 of the blood flow to the brain
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