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  1. Southpaw is online now
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 12:38pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    Southpaw sometimes people pass out instantly from a choke and sometimes it takes a few seconds. This is not conjecture but a fact. So obviously they do work faster at times.
    Thank you Coach. I certainly am not trying to be argumentative, but it seems like either blood is cut off to the brain and the person passes out, or it doesn't and they don't. I guess what I'm thinking is that when people pass out instantly from a choke, they were already having their blood flow cut before the choke was consciously applied. For example, think of a collar choke getting tight even before it is cinched in.

    Also...I wonder if current blood pressure has a lot to do w/ it? For example, if the person's blood pressure is really high (due to exertion?), does the brain starve faster than if the person's blood pressure was normal?

    Finally, I guess it is always possible for a person to pass out due to pain...though I don't think I've ever seen that from a choke (though has happened to me on other injuries).

    This is interesting and I'm obviously ignorant of the answer...
  2. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 12:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    DCS every time I press there someone will pass out?
    If do right, no can defense.

    Seriously, what are you after? CNS/CNR is not news.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...07387-0001.pdf (year 1932)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00149-0001.pdf (year 1982)
  3. W. Rabbit is offline
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    There's not enough words to describe my existence.

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 1:04pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is my best response Coach.

    I have experienced vasovagal syncope (from asthmatic coughing) AND been choked out in judo. It feels exactly the same (from what I remember, it's been a long time). I did see a doctor after my syncope episode, and he explained to me most of what I've written here.

    Lightheadedness/seeing stars, then nappy time, then happy feelings (after Judo it was "wow that was weird" after the syncope it was "wow I'm alive". I'm being serious here, there is a significant rush of euphoria after both episodes...some sort of chemical dump occurs (endorphins?).

    It is not, as studies posted may show, healthy for you to do this very often, in fact vasovagal reactions from a coughing fit are quite fucking scary.

    If you look at the wiki image of where the vagus nerve is located you'll see that it's very close to the (central nervous system perspective) arteries targeted in "blood" chokes in judo.



    The purpose of the vagus nerve amongst other things is to regulate the heart rate and allow the larynx to allow airflow.

    Since the vagus nerve is heavily integrated into the circulatory system, it not only regulates the system but can be thrown into fuzzy states whenever the circulatory system is manipulated.

    Artificially exciting the vagus (by trauma or compression or any rapid changes in blood pressure) can cause a rapid loss of blood pressure. Depending on your health and the length of time this is allowed to occur, it obviously can lead to cardiac arrest and/or death, but typically the nerve response is a matter of seconds (rather than minutes).

    Someone else mentioned it above but the vagus is part of a feedback system involving blood circulation that, when imbalanced, causes a form of shock.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/11/2011 1:17pm at .
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 1:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two other interesting bits I just got while I grabbed the Wiki image were these two bits. My knowledge came from my past medical episode and consultation, and I only knew about the airway/breathing crap.

    The Vagus nerve can be stimulated in women to produce orgasms.

    The Vagus nervous response is also what causes people to lose bladder control when they are frightened or nervous.

    So from a fighting or judo POV, I think the vagus is probably a very interesting nerve to study.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/11/2011 1:22pm at .
  5. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 2:01pm

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am after what causes a carotid choke to work. So far I think we are coming to the conclusion that it is not lack of oxygen. Which is something that we have been told forever.

    I am simply trying to put this through the basic scientific method of inquiry.

    Instead of coming here and posting my theory. I asked questions. Instead of picking a side I am trying to get as much information from people who are knowledgeable and have a genuine interest in the subject.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  6. tao.jonez is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 2:03pm


     Style: JKD, Jiu Jitsu

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    You've gotten some good feedback - So what IS your theory?
    "Never trust a quote you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln



  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 2:05pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Josh I also had a feeling "The Feinting Game" thing in the news a few years back would be relevant, that game where kids were (presumably in vast numbers...) choking each other out to get high.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fainting_game

    I know it's the Wiki but I thought this description was clear and concise.

    According to this the carotid chokes work quickly because of the nervous system response, combined with the sudden lack of oxygen-rich blood supply to the brain.

    I think I remember a physical trainer once tell me this is why you should take your pulse at the wrist and not at the neck, especially when your heart rate is elevated.

    Strangulation

    A ligature such as a belt or rope around the neck, or hands or arm pressure on the neck compresses the internal carotid artery. Apart from the direct restriction of blood to the brain there are two other significant responses produced by pressing on the neck:

    • Pressing on the carotid arteries also presses on baroreceptors. These bodies then cause vasodilatation (dilation (widening) of the blood vessels) in the brain leading to insufficient blood to perfuse the brain with oxygen and maintain consciousness.
    • A message is also sent via the vagus nerve to the main pacemaker of the heart to decrease the rate and volume of the heartbeat, typically by up to a third.[4] In some cases there is evidence that this may escalate into asystole, a form of cardiac arrest that is difficult to treat. There is a dissenting view on the full extent how and when a person reaches a stage of permanent injury, but it is agreed that pressure on the vagus nerve causes changes to pulse rate and blood pressure and is dangerous in cases of carotid sinus hypersensitivity.

    This method is responsible for most, but not all, of the reported fatalities. The method is especially dangerous when practiced alone and can be mistaken for suicide where the motivation is not known.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/11/2011 2:12pm at .
  8. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 2:05pm

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     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post

    Southpaw sometimes people pass out instantly from a choke and sometimes it takes a few seconds. This is not conjecture but a fact. So obviously they do work faster at times.
    I agree with the lack of oxygen to the brain via the carotid artery causes a person to pass out. I am intrigued by the other theories on vagnus nerve, but I would only be speculating on if that is the cause.

    As far as reasons why it works instantly as opposed to a few seconds, there could be many variables:

    1) The person applying the choke may not be doing it in the most effective manner
    2) The person being choked may have larger neck muscles, which make it more difficult to cut off the flow of blood to the brain.
    3) The person being choked may be hindering the application of the choke by tucking his chin, shrugging his shoulders, etc.
    4) The person being choked may panic, increasing their heart rate which may cause them to pass out sooner.
    5) Some people respond differently to things.

    I not a scientist or in the medical field, this are just some of my observations from training.
    Last edited by CoffeeFan; 5/11/2011 2:08pm at .
  9. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 2:58pm

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     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh
    I am after what causes a carotid choke to work. So far I think we are coming to the conclusion that it is not lack of oxygen. Which is something that we have been told forever.
    The lack of oxygen in the brain is caused mainly by a lowered blood presure (which is caused by tricking the nervous system, who "thinks" you have a very high blood pressure when in reality is the pressure exerted by the choker on the carotid body) not by obstruction of the arteries.

    Ed.: Low blood pressure -> not enough blood (oxygen)
    reaching the brain -> passing out.

    http://www.bonjour-docteur.com/actua...iaque-2156.asp
    Last edited by DCS; 5/11/2011 3:05pm at . Reason: for 5th graders and frenchies
  10. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 3:23pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe it is a pressure caused by the restriction of blood flow out of the brain not into the brain. Systolic and diastolic pressure are different the heart pumps blood out with more pressure than it sucks it in.

    So when you apply the choke the jugular vein is restricted easier than the carotid. The stoppage or slowing of the blood leaving the brain then causes a back up and the pressure from this causes the person to pass out.

    The vagas nerve part is intriguing and I am going to go on this line of thought with that. When the vagas nerve experiences a pressure change it will force the heart to lower the pressure to protect the arteries from rupturing from increased pressure. This will in turn help lower the pressure going to the brain to help prevent damage from the increased pressure.

    Now if you continue to choke after they pass out is when you start causing damage. At this point the level of O2 going to the brain is low or stopped and we will start to see brain damage and eventually death.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
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