Explain how a carotid choke works.

[W. Rabbit]

Josh I'll try to stick to MA sources....may have come up with a great source linking the vagus response with shime waza as well as covering the other bases we've been discussing.

Turns out it's referenced in Vladimiar Putin's book on Judo on page 43. I'd have called it Shestakov's and Levitsky's book on Judo, but...it's Putin.



http://books.google.com/books?id=wP3...=vagus&f=false

[Coach Josh]

Again this helps to further my conviction that it is not entirely O2 related but pressure and restriction of the jugular that causes the KO.

The EFFECT is that the vagus lowers BP in response to the CAUSE of increased pressure due to the restriction of the JUGULAR. The O2 levels in the blood going to the brain does not change since the lungs are working and still oxygenating blood but inability of the blood to leave with the CO2 in the brain does not allow the oxygenated blood to do its job which again is an EFFECT of the CAUSE of jugular restriction.

Essentially you have a traffic jam. All of the people trying to leave work are stopped and there is no room for the next shift to come in and do their job.

[judoka_uk]

I wonder what the effect of the proprioceptors in the neck is. From a quick googling they seem to affect stability and balance when damaged or impaired. Maybe that's what makes the limbs go all floppy and people having difficulty standing up when they come to, because their proprioceptors are out of wack.

[W. Rabbit]

I wonder what the effect of the proprioceptors in the neck is. From a quick googling they seem to affect stability and balance when damaged or impaired. Maybe that's what makes the limbs go all floppy and people having difficulty standing up when they come to, because their proprioceptors are out of wack.

The proprioceptive system is related to the vestibular system, which most people are familiar with as the part of the inner ear that help's you physically stabilize/balance in your environment.

Slight derail...

That's why inner ear infections can lead to extreme dizziness, loss of balance/orientation, or syncope. Swelling is putting pressure on that sensitive part of the CNS.

People with sensory processing disorder (also sometimes called proprioceptive dysfunction, which my oldest son suffers from) require occupational therapy in order to learn certain skills such as proper spatial awareness, gross and fine motor coordination, etc.

Interestingly after years of therapy, he now craves balance (the physical sensation) and I find him balancing on chairs, the couch, his desk constantly. This is because he still has SPD, he still craves sensory input more than most people.

/end derail

So...yeah fucking with the proprioceptive sensors in the body during Judo would cause very noticeable results, like the inability to stand, walk, or even hear/see things properly, since the visual and auditory nerves are also involved in proprioception. It's all biofeedback.

[DayOfTheJackass]

..do you consider it significant that people are choked out more quickly if having recently drilled chokes?

[danno]

lots of speculation here. might as well add my own.

i've heard this theory before:

I have come across the theory of restricted blood flow out of the head causing high blood pressure and then unconsciousness before and thought it made sense.

Arteries (which take blood away from the heart) are generally deeper within the body, while the veins which return it to the heart are shallower. Being shallower, the veins can be more easily restricted by external pressure, unlike the deeper arteries.

When you put a tourniquet on a limb, you can see and feel the higher pressure as more blood is pumped in than can easily get away. Try it on your finger. It quickly gets pumped up and red. A bit like the look of a guys face undergoing a tight RNC (the tourniquet in this case).

I've been looking at some anatomical images of the neck on the net. It's a bit hard to tell what the difference in depth is between the jugular vein and the carotid artery. Either way, veins are thinner and more flimsy tubes than arteries which is another factor that makes them easier to restrict with external pressure.

and i have to say it's definitely my favourite so far. it's consistent with the speed at which chokes can work, and the way it feels. i can definitely feel increased pressure in my head and face when someone gets a good strangle on, it feels like your eyes will pop out of your head.

i'm not a doctor, but my partner is a medical student. i had a chat with her about it and she thinks it sounds plausible. the brain is very sensitive to changes in blood pressure, arteries are thicker and harder to compress and veins are closer to the surface.

i really don't like the vagus nerve idea. i'm sure you can knock someone out kicking them there or whatever, but i don't believe that is why most chokes work. i don't like the reduced oxygen theory either.

[creativo]

l
i really don't like the vagus nerve idea. i'm sure you can knock someone out kicking them there or whatever, but i don't believe that is why most chokes work. i don't like the reduced oxygen theory either.

The vasovagal trigger is how the heart knows that it needs to drop the blood pressure though.

[danno]

can you knock someone out within a few seconds by pressing on those nerves and nothing else?

[DCS]

Death Following Carotid Sinus Pressure

A 66-year-old man with infectious and therapeutic toxicities developed ventricular fibrillation after less than 4 seconds of diagnostic carotid sinus pressure. This is illustrated by an electrocardiogram. A 70-year-old woman with posterior infarction of the heart had carotid sinus pressure applied to correct a tachycardia and developed total cardiac standstill. Both patients died.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/181/7/605.short

So, doing only this: http://www.redorbit.com/news/video/s...g_heart/27177/, at least 2 people have died.

[danno]

i'm not aware of anyone having ventricular fibrillation after being RNC'd.

none of that is consistent with what appears to happen when people get choked in martial arts.

sounds more like we're talking about the vulcan nerve pinch:

The pinch to the subclavian nerve has been compared to the karate chop which was used in other 1960s television series to render opponents unconscious.[12]

Over the years, fans and Star Trek Expanded Universe writers have made a number of suggestions as to how it would work.

The book The Making of Star Trek by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry offers a simple explanation: the pinch blocks blood and nerve responses from reaching the brain, leading to unconsciousness. How this might lead to instantaneous unconsciousness is not explained. (Preventing all blood flow to the brain can result in unconsciousness, but many seconds later.) In this earliest of Star Trek reference books, the pinch is referred to as the “Spock Pinch.”[13]

Another conjecture is that it can be done by applying strong and surgically precise pressure over baroreceptors of the carotid sinus at the base of the humanoid neck. The objective would be to elicit the baroreceptor reflex as the receptors detect an apparent high pressure state due to the externally applied force and causes reflex bradycardia and/or hypotension, leading to decreased blood supply to the brain and syncope.

A third conjecture is paranormal rather than medical: because of Vulcans’ telepathic nature and incredible control over their own bodies, they are able to send a burst of neural energy into another being and overload its nervous system, rendering it unconscious[citation needed] (although the pinch does not work on all species, nor on the time-travelling human Gary Seven[14]). This was supported by the fact that Dr. McCoy could not use it in Star Trek III, but it has been rendered moot by the fact that many non-telepathic characters used it in later Trek series, such as the android Data.

The canonical mechanism of the nerve pinch was finally offered in the episode "Cathexis" of Star Trek: Voyager. There, the Doctor inspects a crewmember who was found unconscious and observes an extreme trauma to the trapezius neck bundle, "as though her nerve fibers have been ruptured"; and it is later revealed that the person was the victim of a nerve pinch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_nerve_pinch