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  1. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 10:33am

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     Style: white boy jiujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Ah, you're just confusing your preferences for objectivity then. Training "usefully" is just as subjective as not. You're a good martial artist—you can fight. So? Can someone with a shotgun end you pretty easily? Yup. Can plenty of other martial artists also break you in two? Sure. (How long, really, would you last in the UFC? How about if the UFC had no weight classes? We can go on...) So is martial arts training useful? Even if you become a professional fighter, so what? It's a star system, which means that you're likely better off financially working in an office or opening a dry cleaners with your brother-in-law. So are martial arts skills more useful than accounting skills, or singing ability, or a union card and some carpentry skills? Nope, not in most cases.

    The only reason most people have to pursue martial arts is pure preference: because one wants to. And even if fighting is part of one's job, choosing that job is a matter of preference, albeit a preference constrained by circumstance. You seem to have some intuition that martial arts has some objective cross-situational utility that isn't in evidence. Not surprisingly, your intuition is informed by your own training and other beliefs about the benefits of sparring, working hard, and your need to have some sort of "objective" benefits for what you prefer doing. It's a common thing, but in most cases, people's preferences come first and "objective" proof or claims about the utility of this or that endeavor are just ad hoc justifications.
    I'm sorry, I think I didn't convey my point clearly. "Useful" is the wrong word for it. I wish I could come up with a better one but the best that comes to mind is appropriate. The original purpose of martial arts is fighting, that is the reason why any particular one was invented. Practicing martial arts without keeping fighting central is not using martial arts for their intended purpose. And if a person is not training in the martial arts to learn to fight but to gain some benefit of the training to fight then my argument is that those benefits can be gained elsewhere more effectively. I especially think this is true because the majority of the benefits gained in martial arts training require the kind of mindset that most people don't have, that love of the pain.

    Of course I understand that people pursue martial arts because they "want to". But that's not really what I'm talking about.
  2. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 10:39am

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK so your contention is that martial arts is for fighting? Why would you train in anything if you are not using it for fighting?

    Name me one style of hand to hand combat that has been used by a military to win a battle?
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  3. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 10:56am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    OK so your contention is that martial arts is for fighting? Why would you train in anything if you are not using it for fighting?
    I don't know, that's my main point. I train in martial arts to learn to fight hand to hand and with hand held weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    Name me one style of hand to hand combat that has been used by a military to win a battle?
    I don't think the use of any one thing has won a battle. Winning a battle takes a combination of weaponry, strategy, and politics. I don't think I've suggested anywhere that armed forces should be training in hand to hand martial arts to win battles. I wouldn't doubt that some soldier somewhere has defeated an opponent through hand to hand fighting at some point.

    But modern military forces do use martial arts as a tool to teach a warrior mindset to their soldiers. They do so by teaching them the fighting applications of whatever style they are learning.
  4. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 10:59am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ View Post
    But modern military forces do use martial arts as a tool to teach a warrior mindset to their soldiers. They do so by teaching them the fighting applications of whatever style they are learning.
    So now you have answered your own question.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  5. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 11:00am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    So now you have answered your own question.
    I'm afraid you lost me again. I'm having a bit of a slow morning. Can you explain that to me please?
  6. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 11:01am

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ View Post
    The original purpose of martial arts is fighting, that is the reason why any particular one was invented.
    Well, that's not quite true either. Martial arts have been developed as forms of physical education, as entertainments (which may involve fighting), for religious and cultural reasons, etc. In the end, you're just making the same error. You think there is some essence to the martial arts that you are pursuing and that other people are not...thus, they should stop pursuing martial arts in their own way because you're better.

    Your point depends on a historical oversimplification, philosophical shenanigans, a rather obvious practical difficulty—any cultural practice needs the support and interest of people who aren't very good at it to survive at a level needed to generate an elite—and it's rather a little rude as well. It's sort of like the college hotshot sneering at the people who have cheap tennis rackets and like whacking the ball around the public park, because playing that way will never make them the next Pete Sampras. Except that our college hotshot won't ever be Sampras either.

    And at the risk of being a little rude myself, I get it. Lots of younger cats pursue martial arts and achieve some local or amateur success because they see it as either a rite of passage into adulthood or a way of legitimizing their claims of masculinity. The best of those do go on to even have real careers! Which are you again? When's your UFC debut, Mr. Mentality?

    Ooh, loving the pain, eh? Life is pain, buttercup: all sorts of people go through twenty-plus hours of labor, or deal with debilitating accidents, injuries, and diseases, bury their own children and loved ones, linger on the edge of starvation all their lives, sweat through decades of harsh jobs (would you rather be a cop in the US or a farm hand in the Ivory Coast?) for nothing but another kick in the face every day. There ain't nothing to love about pain, except most of us here—just by virtue of being able to spend time on the Internet jawing about this bullshit—are privileged enough that we can turn pain into an entertainment. That has nothing to do with what martial arts are really all about.

    Oh, and cheerleaders are more prone to injury and pain than virtually any sportsman in the martial arts. Throw down your little gloves and pick up a pair of pom-poms, then we'll talk about who loves the pain, dearie.
  7. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 11:06am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is there a particular reason why you've called me buttercup and dearie? Did I offend you? If I did, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to explore a particular mindset with other people.
  8. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 11:11am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Well, that's not quite true either. Martial arts have been developed as forms of physical education, as entertainments (which may involve fighting), for religious and cultural reasons, etc. In the end, you're just making the same error. You think there is some essence to the martial arts that you are pursuing and that other people are not...thus, they should stop pursuing martial arts in their own way because you're better.
    Let me rephrase the question. Why would I decide to start training in martial arts if my goals are not to learn fighting? What would the motivations be to choose martial arts over other activities if my goal is not to become good at fighting?
  9. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 11:13am

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     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ View Post
    Let me rephrase the question. Why would I decide to start training in martial arts if my goals are not to learn fighting? What would the motivations be to choose martial arts over other activities if my goal is not to become good at fighting?
    Although this has already been addressed, I will state it again for the record:
    A wide array of benefits other than fighting capability are conferred in unique ways through study of the martial arts.
  10. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 11:18am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You stated it yourself martial arts are a tool used to teach a mindset. That's it. You already knew this but your perspective as Rivington is so bluntly pointing out to you is keeping you from realizing this.

    Essentially what you are saying is that since some people are inferior to others they should not strive to achieve things that they are incapable of doing. In other words "Know your place, boy."

    Every instructor on here has a story about the person who came in to the dojo tripping over their own two feet but after only 10 years of training became one of the most technically proficient students that they ever trained.

    So who wasted 10 years?
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
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