Help Me out Here: MACP = Not battlefield effective?

**AMF** · Posted On: 5/08/2011 7:23pm

I didn't know exactly where to post this, so Mods feel free to move as needed.

So I am in a semi-pissing contest with some guy on martial talk about whether or not the Modern Army Combatives Program is effective on the battlefield.

Gist of the discussion is as follows:

Him; MACP is nothing but MMA/Combat Sports which has rules and is limited by those rules which hinders your ability to save your ass for real. It can't be used effectively in all the gear and armour.
Him; i was a Ranger for 4 yrs at Benning, been involved in martial arts my whole life, have instructor certs in some, been a bouncer, I know what works.
Him; better to heel stomp the knee, eye gouge, crush the larnynx, etc.

My argument is that given the constraints of time to teach the material, they picked the best methods that can be recalled when TSHTF. And Matt Larsen would disagree with him.

I then posted a story from a few years ago where a guy used the clinch and threw some uppercuts/knees against a bad guy that helped him until his buddy showed up and they shot said bad guy.

So am I wrong here, is MACP ineffective in the field? I would be interested in hearing from the active duty fellows (paging Gezere) on this.

Thead to be found here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95643

**wetware** · Posted On: 5/08/2011 7:54pm

Nothing can be used at its full effectiveness in all the gear and armor but strikes that require the precision of a larynx shot or a decent heel to the knee are going to be affected much more by being off balance due to all the gear. It's been said here before and it'll be said here again, but the no rules BS doesn't really matter if you don't have the positioning to make it work. You aren't going to eye gouge me from inside my guard and if I have the skills to keep you out of mount most of the 'no rules' crap is going to be very hard to use.

But on the upside most of those 'sport' gi chokes work real well in BDUs/ACUs.

**Kintanon** · Posted On: 5/08/2011 8:04pm

You're arguing with a "2 Deadly" retard. Have fun.

Ask him how many larynx's he's crushed in real life, or eyes he's gouged out. Ask him how many collar bones he's shattered with a hammer fist.
Cause the answer is going to be 0.
Then ask him how he KNOWS he could do any of those things if the **** hit the fan.

None of it will matter though. The only thing that will ever convince him of anything is getting fucked up on the street, because anywhere else he'll pull the "I didn't want to kill you" excuse as to why he got his ass kicked.

**Team Python** · Posted On: 5/08/2011 9:42pm

If you have to use hand to hand on the battlefield it is because your weapon malfunctioned or you ran out of ammo and you could not get to your knife or bayonet. The hand to hand is the last resort and in that scenario it is most likely going to be a one on one situation. So basic stand up skills such as boxing and the groundfighting of BJJ work perfectly in that situation. If you are able to take your opponent down and mount him or take his back you then can finish him with a knife/bayonet. Remember your mission as Soldier or Marine on the battlefield is to kill not to submit.

Note** - An E-Tool makes a perfect weapon as well.

**TheMightyMcClaw** · Posted On: 5/08/2011 10:49pm

Wasn't the old combatives system filled with bullshit deadly ninja moves, and the whole reason they created MACP was because they realized that was bullshit?

**Hedgehogey** · Posted On: 5/09/2011 3:07am

Pretty much. Ninjutsu is the equivalent of the guys from The Men Who Stare At Goats.

**Bad Apple** · Posted On: 5/09/2011 10:06am

FWIW you could go the route of what the LEO's use on "teh d3@dly str33ts" and that closely resembles MCMAP/ MACP. There is just too little of a sample size for battlefield hand to hand incidents but for cops and robbers there is plenty. The criminals are also rarely constrained by the use of force continuum and may begin using "teh d3@dly" right away. Cops kick asses ALL THE TIME and they are encouraged very strongly to take prisoners.

Remind the guy that whoever the military is facing in these rare instances of hands on combat has very little training themselves. You fight like you train and THAT is the important part. If you've never trained full force and speed how to snatch out somebodies voicebox (and how could you) the chances of you pulling it off for real are pretty bad. Go find some vids of the early UFC or Vale Tudo matches with the bare minimum rulesets. There is a reason you only see certain styles and techniques working even back then.

Now go wipe the floor with that dope.

**Soldiermedic** · Posted On: 5/09/2011 10:12am

In my experience, the main problem with MAC is that as far as training goes, its a very low priority. I think not counting the bayonet course(which has been taken out of BCT) we might have spent 3 instructional periods on it, and then I think I might have had 2 refresher courses since then(2003).

I dont think its the program, I think its how its trained that is the problem.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 5/09/2011 10:12am

Originally Posted by Bad Apple

FWIW you could go the route of what the LEO's use on "teh d3@dly str33ts" and that closely resembles MCMAP/ MACP.

Naw this won't work. There are many stories, even on this website, of Karate, Aikido, Kung Fu and other arts being trained and used supposedly effectively by LEOs. Let's not forget the millions of seminars boasting JKD, Wing Chun and ninjitsu. Moreso, IMO, than MMA.

As to the OP, contact Asia. He has many stories and could probably point you to legit sources.

Oh and stop arguing with the deadly, it is the Kobayashi Maru of the internet.