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  1. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 8:24am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd cut the old guy some slack. He's in his late 60's and obviously has bad hips and other physical ailments. He has a good resume is a USJA/USJI shichidan and is, apparently, still competing successfully at the masters level. There are some subtle things going on there and it's clearly a personal henka technique.

    My personal favorite grip for tai otoshi is the same-side lapel grip. One funky grip is Mike Swain's elbow grip. You have uke's lower sleeve with your hikite and what would be your tsurite presses into uke's elbow as you do the body drop mechanics (very similar to an aikido technique I learned years ago, oddly).

    And one of the best combinations from tai otoshi is ... tai otoshi. Just keep attacking. Another -- one I've only done a couple of times -- is tai otoshi into uchi mata. If uke steps over your leg to avoid tai otoshi, turn it right into uchi mata.
    Last edited by Res Judicata; 5/10/2011 8:35am at .
  2. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 8:41am

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Taiotoshi to yokotomoe
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 9:50am

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    I'd cut the old guy some slack. He's in his late 60's and obviously has bad hips and other physical ailments. He has a good resume is a USJA/USJI shichidan and is, apparently, still competing successfully at the masters level. There are some subtle things going on there and it's clearly a personal henka technique.
    There's being old and infirm and then there's doing a technique completely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    My personal favorite grip for tai otoshi is the same-side lapel grip. One funky grip is Mike Swain's elbow grip. You have uke's lower sleeve with your hikite and what would be your tsurite presses into uke's elbow as you do the body drop mechanics (very similar to an aikido technique I learned years ago, oddly).
    An Adams favourite as well, re-popularised by Won Hee Lee

  4. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 3:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Any more developed thoughts, now you have fewer hillbillies to lock up and only turkeys to shoot?
    Huh, what you talkin 'bout? I've slept since then.

    My six year old managed to call in a big tom turkey yesterday for me. It was at the edge of max effective range so two shots just confused it.

    Nothing is worse than your six year old boy accusing you of bad judgement on a shot at a turkey.

    Developed thoughts:

    Well, we worked on tsurikomi both static and moving against progressive resistance last night, so I must have been thinking of you!

    Results:
    1.) My right shoulder is fucked. I 've been digging up the garden, planting trees, and doing more randori and it's not liking it. So my ability to do tsurikomi/uchikomi/nagekomi against much resistance is hampered a lot. Anything but ashi waza isn't working very well. But more importantly I did observe my students, and take falls from them.

    2.) High pull against set grip and posture doesn't work unless you are Anton Geesink working with a -48 kg female. Even then it won't look like a high pull. No wonder people wonder why their ability to do uchikomi and nage komi with a compliant uke does not translate directly to success in randori or shiai. The jump from uchikomi/nagekomi to randori is too large. Most people treat randori like shiai and go all out. Intermediate types of drills and training are needed, which requires discipline and control by both uke and tori-real Jita Kyoei.

    3.) The high pull type tsurikomi seems to facilitate learning correct body position, getting to the point of the triangle, etc. Despite the fact that everybody does them and high level judoka are probably very good at them, they are still a basic to intermediate sort of drill for overall coordination. I suspect they were developed due to the need to teach large numbers of students in situations where not many instructors were available. Like Judo being taught as PE in the Japanese school system?
    Coming from me, that must sound rich indeed.

    4.) Against resistance, and by that I mean an uke who has properly set their grips and posture (simplest to understand is ai yotsu in an equal gripping situation), or even if tori has sleeve control, the high pull isn't going to happen like it does in tsurikomi/uchikomi/nagekomi drills. If both uke and tori are in in migi or hidari shizentai (offset stances, both right or both left), it is even more difficult for tori to maneuver to the correct position.

    5.) The tsurite plays an even more important role. The elbow has to be set correctly and stay in the pocket or along/against uke chest. Lowering the body and moving to the correct position, being the point of the triangle more or less for forward throws and Ouchi and Kouchi Gari is critical as well. Although, in reality, ending up offset to the right (in a right hand throw) a bit from the point of the triangle is useful (for the forward throws). If you look at some of the Okano videos you posted, you can see he does that as well.

    Tentative conclusions:

    1.)Being proficient at tsurikomi in it's different versions is VERY important to being able to perform against resistance (randori/shiai). The coordination of hikite and tsurite and body movement in the basic tsurikomi drills, etc., is what is most important. Without it, success in a dynamic situation (randori or shiai) will be very difficult if not impossible. Tori has to have such movments and coordination(s) ingrained and done automatically.

    2.) tsurikomi/uchikomi/nage komi/progressive resistance drills/static to moving to randori is the progression that works best. Combined with training basic movements/posture/grips/tai sabaki linked to specific throws (or groundwork) is the way to train effectively.

    3.) I suspect static uchikomi may have developed from the need to teach masses of students in PE settings in small spaces.

    4.) Someone's car is on fire! OMG! Call the fire dept !

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 3:43pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Conde Koma View Post
    do you have any suggestions for hitting this throw off of an over- or underhook? or do you recommend using this exclusively from the lapel/sleeve grip?
    It would not be my first choice for that situation. But if you get very good at it with the gi, you will be able to figure out a way to do it in that sort of situation.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. C0WB0Y is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 8:10pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I love Tai Otoshi, but it is one of my weaker throws. I wanna be good at it, but I just can't seem to master it.
  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 8:40pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by C0WB0Y View Post
    I love Tai Otoshi, but it is one of my weaker throws. I wanna be good at it, but I just can't seem to master it.
    Welcome to the club.
  8. C0WB0Y is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 9:25pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BTW, I do love all your instruction threads. Is there some master listing of all your threads?
  9. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2011 10:37pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cowboy, go to Judoka UK's blog "The Difficult Way". Click on his oversized signature at the bottom of his posts and you will find his collected works.

    I think he has also posted a teaching progression for Tai Otoshi by Bruce Kamstra, one of my collegues in BC. Bruce's progression and cues are very good, I reccomend them. Or google Tai Ototshi Bruce Kamstra. They are also linked from the Judo BC website.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2011 1:59pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I "got" tai otoshi recently. One of my coaches, a tai otoshi specialist, even said my uchikomi was pretty.

    It's hard to explain. I finally got the basic motion and foot work down, and then I started to feel the weight transfer from the slide of the extended leg and then I started to generate significant power from the drop and the twist of the torso. I can now get everything to happen together at the same time.

    I've been working on the throw steadily for least a year and half--at least 10-20 static uchikomi in every practice-- with steady corrections. I finally feel like I somewhat understand the basic lapel-and-sleeve version of the throw. Hard, hard throw.

    Of course, the other night my instructor proceeded to demonstrate tai otoshi in virtually any direction from little more than an end of sleeve grip. Maybe in 20 years I'll be able to do that.
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