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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 11:43am

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Whether or not you keep you sleeve high is going to depend on how much resistance uke is giving you. If he/she is cooperative, probably yes, although to finish it won't be extended. With the grips set and no sleeve control, no, unless you are doing Judo with a child, grips set and sleeve control, maybe, but probably not.
    Yeh, absolutely, and as you know the reason we drill the high pull is to overcompensate for the resistance you will encounter in live practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I actually know Gerald Lafon, that small Judo world again. He'll throw out ideas, but does not give away trade "secrets". I'm so desperate for attention I have no qualms about doing so other than not wanting to confuse people or get them ahead of themselves in their training.
    I have a video of one of his clinics, and he does not cover any of that unless it got edited out.

    My take is that he is correct but that the basics need to be learned first. Movement, action reaction, control, ukemi, transitions, etc need to be introduced even in simplified form as soon as possible, but not competition variations of throws IF that is what Gerald means.

    I've never seen Gerald actually show a teaching progression for a specific throw, which is funny given how vocal he is about training methods in Judo.

    Ben
    Well the one that sticks out to me is his example about O soto gari, but like you say I have no idea how he intends to practice it in a 'competition realistic way'. I imagine he's getting people to do the uchikomi coming diagonaly across the body, but I don't know.

    I agree with him that we need reform in teaching methodology I was reading Adam's Tai otoshi book in prep for this thread his comment on teaching a throw:

    'When techniques are being studied it is good to adopt the whole-part-whole approach in both teaching and practice. The experienced teacher usually demonstrates the whole technique in a movement situation then picks out certain key elements which he emphasizes'

    Is what I believe needs to be abolished. The whole-part-whole approach is the cause of so much technical deficiency in Judo.

    The way I do it is to show the whole and then start people off on solo drills and build up piece by piece to whole. The show throw, ten minute lecture on various aspects then dismiss and practice it, is in my view a terrible way to teach things. People can not process all that information and its just a waste of time.

    I show Tai otoshi, then demonstrate the solo footwork for it/ tandoku renhsuu get everyone to go away and do that, wander round correct and supervise etc, then bring them back in and show the footwork plus hands solo, wander correct bring back in, partner everyone up demo the footwork with a partner, but no grip, wander correct bring back in, demo the hands gripped up with a partner, wander correct and bring back in. Then do it on the move starting solo and then in stages bringing in partners with individual correction at each stage.

    Takes best part of an hour sometimes more and they may not throw uke at all, but they'll be way better at Tai otoshi than another group who did the old fashined whole-part-whole 10 minute lecture.

    The stuff Bruce Kamastra is putting out is the truly 'revolutionary' and forward thinking stuff and is a proper developmental methodology.
  2. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 11:45am


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I actually know Gerald Lafon, that small Judo world again. He'll throw out ideas, but does not give away trade "secrets". I'm so desperate for attention I have no qualms about doing so other than not wanting to confuse people or get them ahead of themselves in their training.
    I have a video of one of his clinics, and he does not cover any of that unless it got edited out.

    My take is that he is correct but that the basics need to be learned first. Movement, action reaction, control, ukemi, transitions, etc need to be introduced even in simplified form as soon as possible, but not competition variations of throws IF that is what Gerald means.

    I've never seen Gerald actually show a teaching progression for a specific throw, which is funny given how vocal he is about training methods in Judo.

    Ben
    I take it this is that Jeff Gleeson influence you were talking about on JF.
  3. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 11:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    All I'm saying is that tai otoshi isn't one that's going to magically work for you right away...
    If I didn't know better, I'd think you were under the impression that I have never done Tai-Otoshi before.
    It's either that, or you have somehow concluded I think I'm going to go from my current level to mastery in one week.

    wtf are you smoking, mate?
  4. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 11:58am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Who do you think I'm going to be working on my Judo with?

    My Dungeons and Dragons group?
    My Call of Duty Clanmates?
    My mother's Sewing circle?


    I will be working on Judo with my Judo Colleagues, and my Judo instructor - which is something that Judoka and BKR would have assumed in the first place, imo.

    BKR: Admitting that I know the source of that line would reveal my true age. It's not going to happen. HOWEVER if you DO know anybody that can knit me a kimono that can alter its own size to match my fluctuating weight, hook me up.
    Ha ha, well, my age is no secret, I learned that one in grade school choir, 5th or 6th grade.

    On the judogi, I can only suggest diet and exercise. Or buy 2 different ones to fit depending on your weight.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 12:01pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Ha ha, well, my age is no secret, I learned that one in grade school choir, 5th or 6th grade.

    On the judogi, I can only suggest diet and exercise. Or buy 2 different ones to fit depending on your weight.
    Incidentally, my weight at the moment is only going down, since I got serious about stuff. The jibe about the fluctuation was a reference to the nursery rhyme.
  6. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 12:03pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Guess View Post
    I take it this is that Jeff Gleeson influence you were talking about on JF.
    You mean regarding Gerald or myself? It's true in both cases, although Gleeson was influenced by his own studies of education methods, he didn't make up different approaches to athletic pedogogy, he adopted extant ones to Judo.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 12:07pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Incidentally, my weight at the moment is only going down, since I got serious about stuff. The jibe about the fluctuation was a reference to the nursery rhyme.
    Great! LOL, I missed your reference, damned cops keep doing traffic stops and I get distracted.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 12:13pm


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    You mean regarding Gerald or myself? It's true in both cases, although Gleeson was influenced by his own studies of education methods, he didn't make up different approaches to athletic pedogogy, he adopted extant ones to Judo.

    Ben
    It was in regard to Gerald. I haven't gotten around to reading Gleeson's books, but from what I've heard and read about him Gerald's approach seems very similar.
  9. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 12:57pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Yeh, absolutely, and as you know the reason we drill the high pull is to overcompensate for the resistance you will encounter in live practice.
    Well, sort of. I'm beginning to think the high pull is a sort of mnemonic device/overexageration for correct arm and body positioning. You know, overexagerate to hit the middle, we use it commonly for teaching body placement etc.

    Obviously, it works for non resisting uke, or if you catch uke by surprise somehow, but against resistance I at least cannot raise uke arm. If the arm is not set properly (elbow down), then the pull can be more like the regular high pull.


    A weak analogy: Kosoto Gari that looks like De Ashi Barai. Why isn't it De Ashi Barai? Because tori applies the technique in the form of Kosoto Gari even though uke heel is not weighted as in the classic form of the throw (gari). So, we perhaps do the throws that use the high pull AS IF we are doing the high pull, even though it's not possible to do so against resistance.

    My experience in experiments against resistance though is that even attempting to do the classic high pull hand position is futile, and messes up the form of the throw. However, the general action of the body is the same, and tsurite action/position is still very important, if not more so especially in Tai Otoshi.

    I'm going to have to bail out of this for now, work just got busy. Google "Moyie Mud Bog" for a glimpse into my world. The boggers are all headed south and are all still rather intoxicated. Between the state police, the sheriff's deputies, and the local police,it's a LEO feeding frenzy.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 1:38pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Guess View Post
    It was in regard to Gerald. I haven't gotten around to reading Gleeson's books, but from what I've heard and read about him Gerald's approach seems very similar.
    Gleeson was/is a large influence on Gerald, I think. Gerald has progressed a lot further on his own now, though.

    Gleeson was a big influence on Phil Porter as well.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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