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  1. garbanzo is offline
    garbanzo's Avatar

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 4:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I gues it's like EST.

    You have to do it to "get it".

    Never having done it, I still don't get it.
  2. Bang! is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 4:17pm

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jellyman
    I would ask you: where you come from, how much time to you devote to learning how to deliberately absorb blows using breath and body movement only, in such a manner that you lessen damage?
    So Systema guys are able to take full hits from someone like Ronin or his training partners?
  3. jellyman is offline

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    Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 4:36pm


     Style: systema

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis
    jellyman, you know, I wasted so much precious lifetime with watching Systema clips that fit my description pretty closely, that one halfway decent isnt making it much better.
    As I said, that clip represents a typical systema class, insofar as there is one. Do you think video clips define a martial art? What you consider half-decent we consider pretty basic/fundemental. What you consider outlandish we consider higher level. But you must master the basics before you can even approach a higher level.


    and btw : its nice that these guys know to grapple - but my bet that both of them were ok grapplers before they entered a Systema school...
    Maybe you need to rewatch the video - everyone else in the background is grappling too. We grapple pretty much every day. We call it 'wrestling'. Wrestling as others call it most closely apporximates 'grab escapes'. I am a personal friend of the smaller guy. The other was a 4 year student and personal friend of Carlos Newton, who sent him to us because he asked what he'd recommend for non-sportive yet combatative MA. I think he hangs out at rebellion jujutsu too.

    The smaller was a decent grappler when he met Vlad, but since then has gone up by leaps and bounds by anyone's scale. He's pretty much gone beyond weight classes now. For the past 7 years he has done nothing but systema. He also used to be on Canada's national freestyle wrestlng team, came 6th in the Pan Am games. He is also an instructor working for Vlad, when he's not a student. And he tells us everything he knows. That's the beauty of not having a style defined by technique - those who join gain insight into what they know as well as the new stuff, and it's all shared out. Giants join us, and make us stronger, because they can still be themselves :) Even when you don't do thai kicks, there's a good chance you may come across one anyway, and have to learn to dea with it. And because we have no ranking system to pander to an ego, it is easier to be humble and admit youdon'tknow stuff, and change what you do when you do get caught.

    of course, these giants have to be convinced there is something they need to know, but fortuneately for us, that is not hard for us to provide, ultimately because we have Vladimir to show us things, and even the giants are awed by his knowledge.

    For example, here is a man, master of sport in sambo, master of sport in judo, world masters champion in judo, succesful judo coach in California, who gave it all up for systema after meeting Vladimir:

    Sergey Makarenko - Sacramento Norcal Systema Instructor.

    Born in Russia, Sergey Makarenko has been practicing competitive & combat martial arts since 1978. Master of Sport,
    USSR in Sambo & Judo; 4th Degree Black belt Kodokan Judo. Mechanical/Energy engineer; moved to California at 1992
    where has been teaching Judo & combat Sambo since. Aside from professional carrier specialized in youth judo & trained
    numerous state & national champions. Finished personal competitive carrier winning World Masters Judo Championship.
    After meeting with Vladimir Vasiliev has became his student. Currently teaches primarily Russian Martial Art.
    source for above quote:

    http://norcalsystema.com/instructors.html

    source to prove he was indeed a World Masters Judo champion, from

    http://judoinfo.com/01masters.htm :

    DIVISION: M2 Male 35-39 yrs, +100kg
    1. Sergey MAKARENKO, Sacramento, CA, USA
    2. Bryan LEININGER, Phoenix, AZ, USA

    But I supose he must not be very competitive...
  4. marcdscott is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 4:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Systema practioners will never win any online debate outside of their own forums, the problem is that for the most part people who are objective see through the ridiculousness that is Systema and are not afraid to call it what it is, a weird mutation of Aikido disguised in pseudo Russian folklore and history.

    Jellyman keeps hoping that he can show video that is hardcore enough to convince people Systema is the real deal, but the truth is he never can. Mainly due to the fact that there are enough completely ridiculous videos, and writings, etc, that one vid of some people grappling will never wash the bad systema taste out of peoples mouth.
  5. jellyman is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 5:04pm


     Style: systema

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So Systema guys are able to take full hits from someone like Ronin or his training partners?
    Not knowing this person, it would be stupid to say definitively. For all I know, he cracks ribs on a regular basis.


    Not to mention, just because we have no visible ranking system doesn't mean we are all the same. We have a 90 pound woman who trains with us, obviously her capacity to absorb will be less. Not to mention simple experience. Everyone's a beginner sometimes. So, assuming his punches are less lethal than basball bats, I would say some could, some couldn't.

    For myself, I can tell you that I've had complete strangers, grown men, from distant countries, who couldn't care less about me, slug me in the gut at my invitation as hard as they could, as often as they cared to. I've been hit the hardest by Mikhal Ryabko, runner up being Sasha from Serbia, who also has a background in kickboxing and some MMA with his good buddy Shah Franco. I am not the toughest by any means, but I know what a good hit feels like. You can learn to absorb a punch. I have bruises on my belly from last Wednesday. Feels good.
  6. jellyman is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 5:06pm


     Style: systema

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jellyman keeps hoping that he can show video that is hardcore enough to convince people Systema is the real deal, but the truth is he never can. Mainly due to the fact that there are enough completely ridiculous videos, and writings, etc, that one vid of some people grappling will never wash the bad systema taste out of peoples mouth.
    I didn't post this video samboboy, Vlad did.

    And if your response is *blablabla I cann't heeear you* then I guess the only rational response is to ignore you.
  7. jellyman is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 5:10pm


     Style: systema

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for the real deal, I frankly don't care what you think. But last week two young men walked in with something to prove, and very nearly got seriously hurt. Since this seems to be the place most of the haters congregate, at least now they may have some idea what can happen to them.

    Oh, as for only systema forums, nothing but good things about this video on emptyflower. And our friend andre seems to like it.
  8. marcdscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 5:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am sure Vlad didn't post it to convince some people on a forum of the validity of Systema, but you chose to use it for just that reason.

    My response is not "I cann't heeear you" it is more, "Jesus Christ not another video". Part of me though enjoys the vids for the entertainment value of them.

    I am not sure why you need to have the world at large validate what you do, you seem obsessed with having people embrace Systema. It seems like a religious mission for you.

    I just like to comment on it because it is one of those systems out there that remind me how whacky and cultish martial arts are.

    I am glad you have a hobby you like, I am glad for you that other like it to, but stop trying to prove how great it is through disjointed videos.
  9. marcdscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 5:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "But last week two young men walked in with something to prove, and very nearly got seriously hurt. Since this seems to be the place most of the haters congregate, at least now they may have some idea what can happen to them."

    Lol, oh my goodness some young kids almost nearly got seriously hurt..

    The fact is you do care what I think, if you didn't you wouldn't argue everytime I make a comment. It kills you that I come along and throw some common sense your way when you get on the Systema pedestal.
  10. sui generis is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 5:49pm


     Style: PersonalDefenseReadiness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    jellyman,

    I might be a strange guy, but in my personal book you are a bit more than a decent grappler when you wrestle in a national team and place 6th at the pan am games... so with my bet I was right on the money ... :evil1:

    The cool stories about the terrific guys coming to Systema are pretty boresome for me, since they have all one thing in common - you mostly talk about people who know their ****, are good fighters and dont have to learn fighting "as such", but only become even better fighters.
    But this is absolutely irrelevant, as the most customers are average Joes who know dick about fighting.

    And I have seen enough average- Joe-guys with no noteworthy prior fighting experience before, people who were supposed to learn that kinda stuff at Systema.
    And you know what - in most cases I doubt that these guys [2-5 yrs training] would be able to pull off their stuff against an athletic, fully resisting opponent of their own training level in a hard contact combat sport- simply because they dont train that way, since training is in slo-mo most of the time and the partner isnt fully resisting.


    btw - I dunno if this has been posted, i didnt read the whole thread yet - this is Systemas idea of sparring... or at least it pretty much resembles how it looks like :

    http://systemaclips.com/clips/Hamilton_freestyle.wmv
    EDIT : HP is down - but I ll solve that problem :)

    description from the website http://groups.msn.com/RMAHamilton/videoclips.msnw :
    Some footage of the class sparring. There are varying levels of skill shown, and of course everyone has their own way of doing things. The idea here is not just to hammer someone, but to employ skill as much as possible. Survival comes first. This clip will require the Windows Media 9 codec
    ... any questions :eusa_sick
    Last edited by sui generis; 7/18/2005 5:59pm at .

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