systema

**jellyman** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 1:26pm

"that what you see is just drills and not fighting..."

I have never seen any in-class video clips of a fight from any style ever.

Always there is some restraint preventing attempted murder. Ah me, the world is full of pussies.

**Ronin** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 1:45pm

Originally Posted by jellyman

So you think Furtry armbarring that guy was part of a drill? Like everyone got together and said - okay, you turtle, and then I'll armbar you etc. then we'll switch?

'nuff said. That's sparring, niothing was prearranged.

Although, I suppose, from one point of view, sparring is a drill. I supopse a bunch of guys slugging each other is a drill.

But that means there is no fighting in many MA club, it's all just sparring.

Last week 2 guys from outside the club came ito Vlad's and tried to bushwack some systema guys by trying to hurt them during a footwork drill. We actualy thought they were a couple kids who'd read too many bullshido threads and snapped. They did get handily and painfully ganked, but this is not something we want to encourage as normal ("come to systema, we will hammer the **** out of you" is not the world's best sell).

I take it in your school everyone hates each other and tries to cause injury?

You must have an impressive attrition rate. Do you have clips of people getting injured on purpose while training in your school? If not your school, any BJJ., Judo, Sambo, wrestling, or TKD school will do.

There is some police camera footage on the strategos site, or there was. But I don't htink you'd like these, since the systema guy didn't get hurt, and the others were subdued pretty quickly.

Don't be silly,comments like " You must have an impressive attrition rate. Do you have clips of people getting injured on purpose while training in your school? If not your school, any BJJ., Judo..." well not change the fact that you didn't answer my question.

Those were real sparring matches?
I must say that, were I come from, guys getting hit THAT much wouldn't be standing.
But you guys must have weak ass punches then, and slow ones too, because if THAT was full speed and full force, it wasn't impressive at all.

That may wel have been controlled sparring, for that is what it looks like.

But I didn't ask you that.

Have any system guys ever compete full contact or even sparred full contact and do you have clips of those ?

Am I asking too much?

**garbanzo** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 1:54pm

Originally Posted by BatRonin

Have any system guys ever compete full contact or even sparred full contact and do you have clips of those ?

It is not necessary to produce videos of street fights, riots, illegal pit fights or Pride clips to convince people.

Hard sparring would do. The following examples qualify:

Muay Thai sparring.
Boxing sparring.
MMA/Vale Tudo sparring.
Kyokushin sparring (even under the old 'no hands to the face' rules.

In other words, are there any clips available of Systema sparring done full speed with hard contact between to opponents, each trying to win?

**Ronin** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 1:58pm

Before you think I am trying to "devalue" systema, know this, I have been to Vlads school in Thornhill a while back and I even have one of his first video tapes.

I like the man and think he has some valid points.

**Bang!** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 2:05pm

Originally Posted by BatRonin

Don't be silly,comments like " You must have an impressive attrition rate. Do you have clips of people getting injured on purpose while training in your school? If not your school, any BJJ., Judo..." well not change the fact that you didn't answer my question.

Those were real sparring matches?
I must say that, were I come from, guys getting hit THAT much wouldn't be standing.
But you guys must have weak ass punches then, and slow ones too, because if THAT was full speed and full force, it wasn't impressive at all.

That may wel have been controlled sparring, for that is what it looks like.

But I didn't ask you that.

Have any system guys ever compete full contact or even sparred full contact and do you have clips of those ?

Am I asking too much?

Ronin is correct.

Edit: And there's no need to get catty.

**sui generis** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 2:09pm

Originally Posted by garbanzo

In other words, are there any clips available of Systema sparring done full speed with hard contact between to opponents, each trying to win?

no - and since winning is just for sports there wont be any clips like that ... cos systema is for survival, not sport and cant be trained like sports... and maybe thats why it looks so much like "real" fighting looks like... :glasses1:

**Ronin** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 2:11pm

Originally Posted by sui generis

no - and since winning is just for sports there wont be any clips like that ... cos systema is for survival, not sport and cant be trained like sports... and maybe thats why it looks so much like "real" fighting looks like... :glasses1:

Sarcasam detector has been broken, can you clear this up for me ?

**sui generis** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 2:34pm

@ BatRonin:
well... you know... winning is bad in systema ... or at least is considered to be bad... because you cant win on t3h str33t, only survive ... and systema is all about survival ... [so I was told]
and maybe that the thought of winning is totally absent could be a reason, why in most systema clips people look not very dedicated in their attacks, move slowly and seem to take falls here and then... all stuff i havent seen when people are allowed and encouraged to win ...

**jellyman** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 3:45pm

must say that, were I come from, guys getting hit THAT much wouldn't be standing.

I would ask you: where you come from, how much time to you devote to learning how to deliberately absorb blows using breath and body movement only, in such a manner that you lessen damage?

@ BatRonin:
well... you know... winning is bad in systema ... or at least is considered to be bad... because you cant win on t3h str33t, only survive ... and systema is all about survival ... [so I was told]

Am I hallucinating, or did not the first clip I posted show some subission grappling? I swore I saw a tapout. That's sort of a form of competition, isn't it, submission grappling? Beyond that, it really depends. Drills generally go one of five ways

- back and forth, one guy attacks, then the other

- alternating series - one guy does a series of attacks, then the other

- who is better - both attack at once

- melle - you against multiples, all against each other at once - for example, mass fight, mass hit, mass grapple.

- monkey in the middle - you against a team of attackers.

Attacks are generally random, although there may be parameters - only punch, only kick, only wrestle, no rules etc.

The reason I get irritated is simply b/c a demand for someone to really try, etc etc is to me simply a way of saying it's not real unless the systema guy gets pounded flat. Punishing success. Consider, if someone's really good, and they beat a serious attacker in a second, an observer might simply say 'oh, he wasn't trally trying...' Once I shot a video where they hit each other so hard there was blood on the floor. Response from the hoi-poloi - must be fake, so and so looked way to dominant, etc.

and maybe that the thought of winning is totally absent could be a reason, why in most systema clips people look not very dedicated in their attacks,

Bull rushing is easier to do than being sneaky, but bull rushing is not always better. Ask any good judoka or wrestler, they will tell you the same.

[quote]move slowly and seem to take falls here and then... [quote] are we talking about these video clips or some other video clips?

**sui generis** · Posted On: 7/18/2005 4:04pm

jellyman, you know, I wasted so much precious lifetime with watching Systema clips that fit my description pretty closely, that one halfway decent isnt making it much better.
and btw : its nice that these guys know to grapple - but my bet that both of them were ok grapplers before they entered a Systema school...