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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 7:39pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    BJJ may be founded by a Judoka but alot of the techniques used are not found in any "Judo" curriculum but "Juijuitsu".Judo does not use the legs to form holds but Jujutsu does.
    I didn't say BJJ was founded by a judoka, did I. I said the Gracies were taught Kodokan Judo by a Kodokan judoka.

    Judo does use the legs to "form holds". Like Sankaku Jime, Sakanku Garami, etc. But then you obviously do not really know anything about Judo, the history of Judo, or the history of BJJ.

    So, pray tell, which koryu jujutsu ryu(ha) does BJJ takes it's "leg holds" from? And from where did BJJ develop the "front triangle", a hallmark "hold formed with the legs" from ?

    BJJ has taken what it wants from both systems and refined it to a high level and a seperate distinct art.
    Really, BJJ is a separate and distinct art from Judo? I never would have known.


    There are many juijuitsu styles that are not koryu but still juijuitsu.Just because something does not come from koryu does not make it illegitimate.
    All I care about is your misinformation about Judo/BJJ.

    Some people on this forum seem to be hung up on koryu and dont even know what it really means.
    Not really, and I know what koryu means.

    Karate is not koryu but is Goju or Shotokan illegitimate because of that?
    I know that already. I never said anything about Goju Ryu or Shotokan. It would be a bit odd for myself, being a judoka, to state that an art is legitimate or not based on it being koryu or not.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 7:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    "Juijuitsu" is the same as jujutsu but an older english spelling of the word.It is the spelling I was introduced to the arts as so it is "my" prefered spelling.
    As English only uses phonetic spelling of Japanese due to Japanese having its own written system completely alien to english there is no "correct" way to spell Japanese words.(unlike Chinese you introduced PinYin around 1939).

    It does,however,show your own lack of depth of knowledge on Japanese/english translations
    and makes me think you are a "piss taker" with limited knowledge and not worth the time corresponding with.
    I do hope I am wrong though.
    Let me help you are extremely wrong.

    First off there has been no transliteration system (whether it is Hepbrun, Nihon Shiki, Kunrei, etc) has ever romanized the kanji 柔術 as JUIJUITSU. This isn't no where near phonetically correct. The kana that would be used would be romanized as JYU JYUTSU or JIU JITSU. If you really knew Japanese as well as you are trying to come off as you would have taking one look at that and knew it was wrong.
    ______
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    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  3. frenchie88 is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 8:12pm


     Style: Yagyu Shinkage Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He still hasn't stated what style of Kenjutsu they study at the dojo.
  4. jadekayak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 8:38pm


     Style: te jutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually I think you don't know what it means. The reason people refer back to KORYU for legitimacy is because most legit JMA have a link back to a Koryu one. The Japanese are very particular about such things. Modern (Gendai) systems with no link to a koryu art is considered GOSHINJUTSU (Self Defense Method). Doesn't mean they are not good arts but they are not truly JMA despite the name. When talking about authentic JMA this distincition is key.


    I agree with you 100% on above comment.


    If we split hairs Karate is not a JMA but Ryukyu art. Karate does have links to systems but would technically fall under the KORYU category but KARATE has it is known today is not koryu but Gendai budo.

    This is partly correct. Karate is not a JMA but it is Ryukyu or Okinawin.Karate has absolutely no links to koryu because of its lineage(this does not detract from its legitimacy).
    Koryu is from Samurai arts only and Karate in any form is not.(ninjutsu in any of its forms is not koryu because of the same reason but it is still a legitimate "Japanese" art-the legitimate here refers to the source as being Japanese,not to the legitimacy of the art wich is another story alltogether)

    However this is all a diversionary tactic to try to bring legitimacy to your art which is not a JMA but would simply be looked at as Goshinjutsu in Japan. If you went to a Japanese MA historian and told them you did TE JUTSU they would look at you weird. (mainly because the name itself could mean anything from pianist or the skill of a girl in a pink salon) Then you would explain your art and they will tell you that it may be a nice art but it is not a JMA. I grew up in Japan and have seen many people make up a Japanese sounding art and say it is Japanese just to them smile and nod and say no it is not.[/QUOTE]

    You are way out of line here.Nowhere have I said or implied that my art is an original JMA.In fact I have gone out of my way to say the opposite.

    You also seem to be hung up on Japanese=legitimacy and this is plain untrue.

    If I went to a MA historian & told them I do tejutsu they would understand 100% what I meant and would not need to have it explained as the term explains the art and source of the art."Hand art"(te jutsu) and "empty hand"(kara te) could be used to describe anything using the hand as you stated but the fact that you are speaking to a Martial Arts Historian narrows it down to a martial art and both terms (through usage) define were they were practised and named.

    I am trying to correct other peoples crap comments on a style/art they have not seen or practiced.They have not checked the teacher or his qualifications and all they have to go on is a web site they have viewed from around the other side of the world.
    NOT BEING JAPANESE DOES NOT EQUAL ILLIGITIMACY,IT JUST MEANS ITS NOT JAPANESE.
    I DO THIS ART AND I FIND IT WORTHWILE AND EFFECTIVE.IT IS A FIRST GENERATION ART AS ALL ARTS ARE AT SOME STAGE.
    I ALSO HAVE ENOUGH STUDY BEHIND ME ON TRUE HISTORY OF KARATE TO CORRECT THINGS WITH AUTHORITY.
    NO DIVERSIONS OR FALSEHOODS HAVE BEEN MADE AT THIS END BUT OTHERS HIDING BEHIND A FAKE NAME AND AN AVATAR HAVE TO INFLATE THIER OWN EGO OR STANDING IN A COMMUNITY THAT MEANS LESS THAN THE ELECTRICITY IT TAKES TO MAINTAIN IT.

    IT IS NICE TO TRAIN KORYU IF YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY BUT OTHER ARTS THAT ARE NOT KORYU OR NOT EVEN JAPANESE ARE STILL LEGITIMATE,SOME ARE NOT.
    KEEP AN OPEN MIND IN YOUR TRAINNING AND HAVE A LITTLE RESPECT.IT DOES YOU NO HARM TO KEEP QUITE ABOUT SOMETHING YOU KNOW OR THINK IS WRONG BUT SHOWS MORE ABOUT YOU IF YOU SLAG OFF AT SOMETHING YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO KNOWLEDGE OR EXPERIENCE WITH.



    Food for thought.

    Shingake ryu swordwork is a well respected and an old koryu,but how did it become the "new shadow" ryu of swordwork.This happened hundreds of years ago so does age alone make it legitimate.Shinkage ryu only came about because the original Kage ryu died out(maybee all the practitioners got wipped out in a battle proving the system was not worth passing on,maybee the soke never passed it on).Shinkage ryu was founded by a group of students that had some teachings in kageryu but not all and decided to preserve what they collectively learnt.They had enough respect to rename the style to reflect this and the style continues to this day under a few major lines.
  5. frenchie88 is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 8:46pm


     Style: Yagyu Shinkage Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, no, Kamiizumi received his Menkyo Kaiden in Kage Ryu, and combined this with Kashima Ryu and founded the "New Shadow School" in honor of his teacher in Kage Ryu. You might want to try learning about lineage before arguing about it.
  6. jadekayak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 8:50pm


     Style: te jutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    You really don't know much about Japanese Martial Arts do you. If you did you wouldn't be making so many glaring mistakes.

    There has never been AIKIJUTSU there has been AIKIJUTUSU and there was only really one art that used that term extensively.
    Do a search on Morehei Ueshiba and you might find his authorized training history and his and others use of the term Aikijutsu

    "There has never been AIKIJUTSU there has been AIKIJUTUSU and there was only really one art that used that term extensively. "

    I hope that the term "AIKIJUTUSU" above as quoted by you is only a typo as it is plain stupid.

    I only know general histories of some Japanese martial arts but what I have stated is correct and verrifiable if you take the time to do so
  7. frenchie88 is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 8:59pm


     Style: Yagyu Shinkage Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    Do a search on Morehei Ueshiba and you might find his authorized training history and his and others use of the term Aikijutsu

    "There has never been AIKIJUTSU there has been AIKIJUTUSU and there was only really one art that used that term extensively. "

    I hope that the term "AIKIJUTUSU" above as quoted by you is only a typo as it is plain stupid.

    I only know general histories of some Japanese martial arts but what I have stated is correct and verrifiable if you take the time to do so
    Why don't you answer my question? What style of Kenjutsu does the dojo practice? It's not difficult.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    Do a search on Morehei Ueshiba and you might find his authorized training history and his and others use of the term Aikijutsu
    Ueshiba used the terms AIKIBUDO and AIKIJUJUTSU for his art before offically calling it Aikido.


    I hope that the term "AIKIJUTUSU" above as quoted by you is only a typo as it is plain stupid.
    It was a typo I meant AIKIJUJUTSU.

    I only know general histories of some Japanese martial arts but what I have stated is correct and verrifiable if you take the time to do so
    No its not. You have said many things that are wrong and I challenge you to point to a Japanese source to verify it.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  9. jadekayak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:25pm


     Style: te jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie88 View Post
    Actually, no, Kamiizumi received his Menkyo Kaiden in Kage Ryu, and combined this with Kashima Ryu and founded the "New Shadow School" in honor of his teacher in Kage Ryu. You might want to try learning about lineage before arguing about it.
    I was only putting foward a theory for consideration(the reason for the demise of genuine Kageryu)
    Straight Shinkage ryu was founded by students of Kage ryu and the official Shin kage ryu website states this clearly
    The Shinkage ryu lineage is not the same as the Yagu shinkage ryu or any other variation of the Shinkage ryu as stated by this website.
    Many sub styles of Shinkage ryu are in existance and are signified mostly by another name in the ryu name,like Yagu Shinkage ryu

    Searching for pure Kageryu information is rather difficult but various shinkage ryu are abundant.


    "Here are the principle players that began the lineage of the Yagyu-Kai:

    Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Nobutsuna
    (1508-1578 A.D.)
    Yagyu Mitsutoshi
    (1527-1606 A.D.)
    Yagyu Munenori
    (1571-1646 A.D.)
    Yagyu Jubei Mitsutoshi
    (1607-1650 A.D.)
    Yagyu Toshitoshi
    Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Nobutsuna, also known as Hidetsuna, founded the Shinkage school of swordsmanship based on his training in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, Nen-ryu and Kage-ryu, along with his battlefield experience. Hidetsuna is also credited as being the inventor of the fukuro shinai.

    Yagyu Mitsutoshi was a student of Hidetsuna. He was a master of muto, or "no sword" and the founder of the Yagyu line of Shinkage-ryu. Mitsutoshi served as the kenjutsu instructor for the last Ashikaga Shogun, Yoshiaki (1537-1597 A.D.).

    Yagyu Munenori was the son of Yagyu Munetoshi. He served as instructor in the art of kenjutsu for the Tokugawa family and as an advisor to the Shogun, Tokugawa Iemitsu. Munenori is the author of the HEIHO KADENSHO (Family-Transmitted Book of Strategy). The Yagyu family was raised to nobility during his lifetime when Munenori was raised to the rank of daimyo. Munenori was also the first to serve in the capacity of O-Metsuke.

    Yagyu Jubei Mitsutoshi was the son of Yagyu Munenori. Jubei wrote the book Tsuki no Sho and continued the Edo line of Shinkage-ryu. He taught swordsmanship to Tokugawa Iemitsu.

    Yagyu Toshitoshi was the grandson of Mitsutoshi and nephew of Munenori. His father was the eldest son, but had been injured in battle. So Mitsutoshi passed on the inheritance of the Owari branch of the Shinkage-ryu to Toshiyoshi. In this way, Toshiyoshi became the kenjutsu instructor of the junior branch of the Tokugawa located in Nagoya.

    As you can see from the above Shinkage ryu was formed as a mixture of no less than 3 styles and personal experrience.

    This differs from other sources.

    I guess you can take your pick as to the "true" source of Shinkage ryu" as ther are conflicting
    evidence.


    Here is a link to the page explaining the Kage ryu lineage
    http://www.koryu.com/library/chyakutake1.html


    and yet another link
    http://yagyu-shinkage-ryu.jp/bunken1_e.html
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 9:33pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No one is going to believe what you post when you use random websites as sources. Yes, wiki is included in this for Martial Arts. If you want to develop a theory, that is rationally supported, you need to find scholarly sources that are peer reviewed.

    That's an explanation to help you understand why people are jumping your comments.

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