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  1. Yoj is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 6:03pm


     Style: Aikijujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    Prince Vlad-you make it sound like te-jutsu is made up by westerners(maybe even my teacher).
    It is "made up" by Japanese/Okinawins and has been around as long as the Okinawins named this art,along with Shuri-te and Naha-te,both regions in Okinawa that the arts were named after and incidently the two major root styles of "Okinawin Karate"
    Where is Okinawi? What is the lineage back to these Okinawins?
  2. jadekayak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 6:03pm


     Style: te jutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    No, BJJ is a derived from Judo, not any koryu jujutsu school. The man who taught the Gracies was a Kodokan judoka, plain and simple. They are now separate arts, of course. There is no direct lineage from any koryu to BJJ, any would go through Kodokan Judo.
    BJJ may be founded by a Judoka but alot of the techniques used are not found in any "Judo" curriculum but "Juijuitsu".Judo does not use the legs to form holds but Jujutsu does.
    BJJ has taken what it wants from both systems and refined it to a high level and a seperate distinct art.
    There are many juijuitsu styles that are not koryu but still juijuitsu.Just because something does not come from koryu does not make it illegitimate.
    Some people on this forum seem to be hung up on koryu and dont even know what it really means.
    Karate is not koryu but is Goju or Shotokan illegitimate because of that?
  3. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 6:36pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    BJJ may be founded by a Judoka but alot of the techniques used are not found in any "Judo" curriculum but "Juijuitsu".Judo does not use the legs to form holds but Jujutsu does.
    WRONG!
    Kodokan Judo at the time it came to Brazil (1920s) is different that what is commonly seen today. Kodokan Judo did indeed have leg locks. Ashihishigi, for example, can be found in The Cannon of Judo (Mifune, Judan!) and Th Manual of Judo (E.J. Harrison) among other works on the art.

    BJJ has taken what it wants from both systems and refined it to a high level and a seperate distinct art.
    There are many juijuitsu styles that are not koryu but still juijuitsu.Just because something does not come from koryu does not make it illegitimate.
    Some people on this forum seem to be hung up on koryu and dont even know what it really means.
    Actually I think you don't know what it means. The reason people refer back to KORYU for legitimacy is because most legit JMA have a link back to a Koryu one. The Japanese are very particular about such things. Modern (Gendai) systems with no link to a koryu art is considered GOSHINJUTSU (Self Defense Method). Doesn't mean they are not good arts but they are not truly JMA despite the name. When talking about authentic JMA this distincition is key.

    Karate is not koryu but is Goju or Shotokan illegitimate because of that?
    If we split hairs Karate is not a JMA but Ryukyu art. Karate does have links to systems but would technically fall under the KORYU category but KARATE has it is known today is not koryu but Gendai budo.

    However this is all a diversionary tactic to try to bring legitimacy to your art which is not a JMA but would simply be looked at as Goshinjutsu in Japan. If you went to a Japanese MA historian and told them you did TE JUTSU they would look at you weird. (mainly because the name itself could mean anything from pianist or the skill of a girl in a pink salon) Then you would explain your art and they will tell you that it may be a nice art but it is not a JMA. I grew up in Japan and have seen many people make up a Japanese sounding art and say it is Japanese just to them smile and nod and say no it is not.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. jadekayak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 6:36pm


     Style: te jutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoj View Post
    Where is Okinawi? What is the lineage back to these Okinawins?
    Great question?

    Okinawa(formerly the Ryukyu islands) is to the south and slightly west of the southern most tip of Japan.It has a LONG history of trading with China and Japan and has been greatly influenced by both.It has been subjugated by both but more prominantly by Japan,especially by the Satsuma clan who claimed and administered it on behalf of the Japanes emperor.
    More recently taken over by American forces in WWII and handed back to Japan at the end of thier occupation(this period is when "Karate" was mostly introduced to westerners on Okinawa and the Japanese mainland).

    The link between Japanese Karate and Okinawin Te is well documented in historical records both in Japan and Okinawa.
    The man considered the "father" of Japanese Karate is Gichin Funagoshi who was invited to demonstrate a "new" system involving rigirous physical excersises involving punching,kicking,striking,and grapling ellements to the Emperor of Japan in 1920.He was strongly supported by the top Judoka of the time-Kano.
    Gichin Funagoshi called this system or style Shotokan and it was introduced to the school(educational) system across Japan.
    Another man by the name of Chogin Miyagi was also instrumental in the spread of "Karate" to Japan.
    This is a simple matter of history so do a google search on both men(not a wikipedia search).
    Both men learnt thier arts in Okinawa and Okinawin records record most of the important aspects of thier trainning and lineage.
    Okinawin records go back along way and some recent records but a large part of middle period records are vauge or non existant as the arts and the practice of them was outlawed by the ruling authorities of the time.

    Goju and Shuri styles have a wealth of records availible on line and there is an Okinawian society created for the preservation of modern records and purity of these arts(It is a long name and I can't remember it but a brief search should yeild the name if you are really interested)

    I hope this is enough information to pique your curiosity.It is not meant as a slight for those who firmly believe "karate" is Japanese but as a start point for those who truly want to study the true roots of thier arts.
    Maybee even to trace it back to India through China.
  5. Yoj is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 6:47pm


     Style: Aikijujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    Great question?

    Okinawa(formerly the Ryukyu islands) is to the south and slightly west of the southern most tip of Japan.It has a LONG history of trading with China and Japan and has been greatly influenced by both.It has been subjugated by both but more prominantly by Japan,especially by the Satsuma clan who claimed and administered it on behalf of the Japanes emperor.
    More recently taken over by American forces in WWII and handed back to Japan at the end of thier occupation(this period is when "Karate" was mostly introduced to westerners on Okinawa and the Japanese mainland).

    The link between Japanese Karate and Okinawin Te is well documented in historical records both in Japan and Okinawa.
    The man considered the "father" of Japanese Karate is Gichin Funagoshi who was invited to demonstrate a "new" system involving rigirous physical excersises involving punching,kicking,striking,and grapling ellements to the Emperor of Japan in 1920.He was strongly supported by the top Judoka of the time-Kano.
    Gichin Funagoshi called this system or style Shotokan and it was introduced to the school(educational) system across Japan.
    Another man by the name of Chogin Miyagi was also instrumental in the spread of "Karate" to Japan.
    This is a simple matter of history so do a google search on both men(not a wikipedia search).
    Both men learnt thier arts in Okinawa and Okinawin records record most of the important aspects of thier trainning and lineage.
    Okinawin records go back along way and some recent records but a large part of middle period records are vauge or non existant as the arts and the practice of them was outlawed by the ruling authorities of the time.

    Goju and Shuri styles have a wealth of records availible on line and there is an Okinawian society created for the preservation of modern records and purity of these arts(It is a long name and I can't remember it but a brief search should yeild the name if you are really interested)

    I hope this is enough information to pique your curiosity.It is not meant as a slight for those who firmly believe "karate" is Japanese but as a start point for those who truly want to study the true roots of thier arts.
    Maybee even to trace it back to India through China.
    Wow, so what's "juijuitsu"? I'm not sure I've ever heard of this style before.
  6. jadekayak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 6:53pm


     Style: te jutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To YOJ


    What is "traditional Aikijutsu".
    Aikido was only invented or used for the first time by the soke Usehiba aronnd 1947.
    He originally learnt Juijuitsu and developed his own distinct style.
    Aikijutsu was a term that got infrequently used by important people of that period but was not a style in its own right.
    It was used to describe a system that resembled parts of juijuitsu but was not quite juijuitsu.

    Maybee I have missed something in my studies and I quite like Aikido/Aikijutsu but will only take it up when I'm too old for my currant studies.
  7. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 7:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    To YOJ


    What is "traditional Aikijutsu".
    Aikido was only invented or used for the first time by the soke Usehiba aronnd 1947.
    He originally learnt Juijuitsu and developed his own distinct style.
    Aikijutsu was a term that got infrequently used by important people of that period but was not a style in its own right.
    It was used to describe a system that resembled parts of juijuitsu but was not quite juijuitsu.

    Maybee I have missed something in my studies and I quite like Aikido/Aikijutsu but will only take it up when I'm too old for my currant studies.
    You really don't know much about Japanese Martial Arts do you. If you did you wouldn't be making so many glaring mistakes.

    There has never been AIKIJUTSU there has been AIKIJUTUSU and there was only really one art that used that term extensively.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  8. jadekayak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 7:16pm


     Style: te jutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Te jutsu is not an art.

    Kenjutsu is an art. Jujutsu is an art. Iaijutsu is an art.

    Te jutsu is made up.
    You are right,"te-jutsu" is a made up word.
    Made up by Okinawins and Japanese many decades ago.
    All words in any language are "made up",if they aren't made up we have no language at all.
    Age alone does not define a words legitimacy(as it is tejutsu has a great vintage anyway).
    Just because you may not have heard of a paticular word or phrase in a language does not make it illegitimate-it just makes you ignorant and by stating Kenjutsu,Jujutsu and Iaijutsu are arts make it sound like you are not ignorant at all.

    Kumihimo,aya-takadai,takadai,and marudai are all Japanes(ancient Japanes) words that all relate to weaving of mostly cordage(especially of interest to us as it is used to bind sword handles and armour together).
    If you take the time to learn what the individual syllables mean they are just as stupid as "kara" and "te"(and any number of compound words in English) but they are still legitimate and old.
  9. jadekayak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 7:28pm


     Style: te jutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoj View Post
    Wow, so what's "juijuitsu"? I'm not sure I've ever heard of this style before.

    "Juijuitsu" is the same as jujutsu but an older english spelling of the word.It is the spelling I was introduced to the arts as so it is "my" prefered spelling.
    As English only uses phonetic spelling of Japanese due to Japanese having its own written system completely alien to english there is no "correct" way to spell Japanese words.(unlike Chinese you introduced PinYin around 1939).

    It does,however,show your own lack of depth of knowledge on Japanese/english translations
    and makes me think you are a "piss taker" with limited knowledge and not worth the time corresponding with.
    I do hope I am wrong though.
  10. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2011 7:37pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jadekayak View Post
    You are right,"te-jutsu" is a made up word.
    Made up by Okinawins and Japanese many decades ago.
    WRONG!

    All words in any language are "made up",if they aren't made up we have no language at all.
    Really reaching here. This is basically saying that since you don't have a command of the Japanese language no one should critique you are anyone else on how they use it. Which is really silly.

    [quote]Age alone does not define a words legitimacy(as it is tejutsu has a great vintage anyway).
    Just because you may not have heard of a paticular word or phrase in a language does not make it illegitimate-it just makes you ignorant and by stating Kenjutsu,Jujutsu and Iaijutsu are arts make it sound like you are not ignorant at all.
    So wrong see above.

    If you take the time to learn what the individual syllables mean they are just as stupid as "kara" and "te"(and any number of compound words in English) but they are still legitimate and old.
    This is wrong on many levels.
    Hint: We are not talking about kana but KANJI therefore the syllables have no meaning.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

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