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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2011 7:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Don't know about Ben, but this kind of thing sets off alarm bells for me.

    You often hear people say their lower body is too weak for Morote seoi nage. Now it may well be true that you could hit the squat rack and build up leg and core strength, pretty much everyone should. However, I rarely think its the cause of problems with Morote seoi nage.

    Normally people complain of poor leg strength/ lower body strength, because they go this low:

    Image is of Ippon seoi nage, but it serves for illustrative purposes.

    People go this low and then either try and press uke by standing back up or buckle under the load.

    Its actually really difficult for a normal person and especiall a beginner to go that low and still complete a throw unless uke's super light.

    So don't come in with straight legs, but don't get so low you're doing a full squat, because you're going to really struggle.

    I tried this about 4 months back when trying to Morote seoi on a 6ft 4 beast I went to low and ended up just toppling forward and faceplanting with him on top of me, much to everyone else's amusement.
    I agree, I just take what he says at face value. When I started Judo, I had strong legs and lower back genetically and from riding a bike and playing soccer, but not a lot of upper body strength. So my coach told me to start lifting weights, which I did, and it helped a lot.

    The issue I see with how low to go in seoi nage, and bending the knees in Judo is three fold:

    1. Coordination. Most people are not accustomed to bending the knees even into say a half squat (or quarter squat) position, and most especially not accustomed to balancing another person on them in the typical judo bent knee position (Judo Predator white belt stalking aside).

    2.) Flexibility: It takes a specific kind of flexibility to do it succesfully as well. If you hamstrings are tight, it is difficult, as they oppose the quads. Same for lower back and hips.

    3.) Strength: Over all core strength/lower body strength, plus strength through the range of motion required.

    I've seen all those in various proportions over the years teaching Judo to "normal" i.e., non athletic but reasonably healthy people.

    I agree with Judoka UK, it's not good to try to bend the knees really deeply. You just need to get low enough to get below the center of gravity(uke belt is a good marker) for throws like seoi nage, o goshi, Tsurikomi Goshi, etc. The deep knee bend type seoi nage where you jump between uke legs is advanced application of the technique, with a specific set of coordination drills to do on top of having the basic seoi nage down well.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. kikoolol is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2011 11:48am


     Style: BJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You often hear people say their lower body is too weak for Morote seoi nage. Now it may well be true that you could hit the squat rack and build up leg and core strength, pretty much everyone should. However, I rarely think its the cause of problems with Morote seoi nage.
    It's been a cause of trouble for about every forward throw and is one of multiple reasons why I utterly fail at them. My lower body is genetically quite weak. I'm just not that bendy, and believe me, I tried.
  3. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2011 1:07pm

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kosoto is not really a good throw. While yes it can work I find it more useful as a setup technique or a follow up technique. Kososto to nidan kosoto or deashi to nidan is really good.

    As far as making it work better as an initial attack pretty much is dependent on kuzushi as with all throws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Hand throw. Seoi nage is a hand throw. The best seoi nage guys I know are moving under and behind uke -- and they get that low or lower. Uke moves forward, tori backward. Ideally, uke barely touches the back. It's not my throw, so YMMV.

    Confusing competition between 2 high level Judoka and proper technique is a common mistake. This is were people have problems LEARNING Judo because they think that they have to do stuff like elite players.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  4. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2011 2:31pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    About the bending of the knees, do you teach the three step seoi (~"Koga style")? That seems to help. Much easier to do a split lunge than squat on the heels. My coach doesn't even teach the two-step and invariably tells people to take another step (or do the one step, for advanced guys). Seems easier to get the hand action that way, too.
  5. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2011 3:11pm

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I started teaching a three step version recently with seois and have been seeing great results. I do not teach to go as deep as Koga but a hybrid version of Koga and classic. I have not had a chance to share my thoughts with more accomplished coaches than myself so I do not know for sure if I am on the right path but the results my students are getting seem to speak volumes.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  6. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2011 4:30pm


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    About the bending of the knees, do you teach the three step seoi (~"Koga style")? That seems to help. Much easier to do a split lunge than squat on the heels. My coach doesn't even teach the two-step and invariably tells people to take another step (or do the one step, for advanced guys). Seems easier to get the hand action that way, too.
    Is it like this?



    My instructor has told me to do it like this as im quite a bit taller than my training parteners and cant quite squat low enough to do it the traditional way. Unless uke is a lot lighter then i just hoist them up and over my shoulder :-)
  7. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2011 5:21pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Something like around 0:24-0:45, although that's a one-step. And if it were Judo and not Sambo I'd say there were some technical problems. I can't seem to find a clip of Koga actually demonstrating "Koga seoi nage."

    The stepping pattern is right across, left, then right back through uke's leg into a lunge under him. The one step is an abbreviated form - high right knee, pivot on the left foot, right leg shoots between (or to the outside). Hands go up and out.

    (Please, someone correct me if I've got this wrong - I'm really not a seoi nage guy).
  8. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2011 8:50pm


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Hold 2 inches lower on the lapel.
    I was once told to grip so low I would basically be holding the gi around uke's stomach. That was a facepalm moment.
  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2011 4:19am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Something like around 0:24-0:45, although that's a one-step. And if it were Judo and not Sambo I'd say there were some technical problems. I can't seem to find a clip of Koga actually demonstrating "Koga seoi nage."

    The stepping pattern is right across, left, then right back through uke's leg into a lunge under him. The one step is an abbreviated form - high right knee, pivot on the left foot, right leg shoots between (or to the outside). Hands go up and out.

    (Please, someone correct me if I've got this wrong - I'm really not a seoi nage guy).
    Some kind soul took it upon themselves to break down the Koga seoi nage, complete with pictures etc...
    http://thedifficultway.blogspot.com/...w-in-half.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Guess View Post
    I was once told to grip so low I would basically be holding the gi around uke's stomach. That was a facepalm moment.
    Well, yes, that is rather obviously silly.
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 5/05/2011 4:27am at .
  10. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2011 4:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    About the bending of the knees, do you teach the three step seoi (~"Koga style")? That seems to help. Much easier to do a split lunge than squat on the heels. My coach doesn't even teach the two-step and invariably tells people to take another step (or do the one step, for advanced guys). Seems easier to get the hand action that way, too.
    I'm not sure what you mean by two and three step seoi nage. The "koga" style is not what I teach to beginners or anybody else for that matter.

    You seem hung up on the deep squat type of seoi nage. That one is more advanced, so would not be taught to beginners. I'd only teach it to someone who was going to specialize in seoi nage as a tokui waza for competition, and even then, not to everybody.

    I can do it, and I specialized in Seoi Nage, I have (had) short strong legs, am (or should say WAS) very fast and agile with very good balance. Not everyone can do the squatting jumping in version or should.

    I should amend my remarks. I now know what you mean by two or three step seoi nage. The three step actually has application as a more advanced technique, depending on how shallow or deep the initial entry is. I normally do two step myself but sometimes have to do three step depending on how uke reacts.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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