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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 12:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Well we don't actually know his Judo as we've never seen it, but your guess is probably correct that he hasn't drilled the fundamentals in depth.

    What I'm suggesting is striking a trade off between development and achievement. As you say to progress with TSG would take a minimum of 6-12 months and that's just to see some decent moving uchikomi/nagekomi.

    What I would 'proscribe' is a combination of tsurikomi drills, as outlined above, whilst focusing on his Ippon seoi nage. That way you build the core skills and he gets to achieve much quicker.

    I think that's a more rewarding learning process, because otherwise life is just going to be very frustrating as he puts all the work in for TSG and sees no throws come from it in randori. Although the benefits of tsurikomi practice will tranfer over to other throws in subtle ways.
    I get what you are saying for sure. If kikool would post video, we could make a more accurate assessment. And if we would post video, it would be great YMAS!

    Combining tsurikomi practice with Ippon Seoi Nage would work as well. I wasn't suggesting not doing nothing but TSG (although that would work if one had the patience). A key is to actually USE the tsurikomi action when doing Ippon Seoi Nage, something that most people neglect. In that sense, Morote Seoi Nage is better, as you don't lose the lapel and maintain more of the tsurikomi feel.

    In any case, tsurikomi practice is a necessity for everyone, myself included, whatever throws one ends up focusing upon.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 12:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If he's twisting/trying to counter with uchi mata, you can transition to tani otoshi. I do that as soon as I feel mine or his hips begin to slide out of place.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 12:53pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I get what you are saying for sure. If kikool would post video, we could make a more accurate assessment. And if we would post video, it would be great YMAS!
    There's certainly room in MABS for some threads on us.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Combining tsurikomi practice with Ippon Seoi Nage would work as well. I wasn't suggesting not doing nothing but TSG (although that would work if one had the patience). A key is to actually USE the tsurikomi action when doing Ippon Seoi Nage, something that most people neglect. In that sense, Morote Seoi Nage is better, as you don't lose the lapel and maintain more of the tsurikomi feel.

    In any case, tsurikomi practice is a necessity for everyone, myself included, whatever throws one ends up focusing upon.

    Ben
    Yeh I agree, however, I think we also have to factor in Kikoolol's injuries he's majorly busted both shoulders. That means drilling the tsurikomi action regularly + trying throws like Morote, TSG and Tai otoshi is going to put a lot of strain on his pre-existing injuries. I think that tsurikomi training static and on the move + ippon seoi would enable him to build up the tsurikomi skills, reduce stress load on the shoulders and allow him to achieve and progress more rapidly.
  4. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 1:00pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    There's certainly room in MABS for some threads on us.


    Yeh I agree, however, I think we also have to factor in Kikoolol's injuries he's majorly busted both shoulders. That means drilling the tsurikomi action regularly + trying throws like Morote, TSG and Tai otoshi is going to put a lot of strain on his pre-existing injuries. I think that tsurikomi training static and on the move + ippon seoi would enable him to build up the tsurikomi skills, reduce stress load on the shoulders and allow him to achieve and progress more rapidly.
    I thought his broken collar bone was healed up, so didn't consider that. LOL, I know all about the shoulder thing, tsurikomi practice plus bad shoulder = sucks.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. kikoolol is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 1:17pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Yeh I agree, however, I think we also have to factor in Kikoolol's injuries he's majorly busted both shoulders.
    Actually, just one shoulder (my left/hikite hand one) is majorly busted, thank FSM. I'm right handed so having my right shoulder busted would've been a PITA to overcome when it comes to studies and just general existence. Pretty hard to write in a sling!

    As Ben said, it's also healed up enough to do judo, or so the doctors say. I mean, I wouldn't go do shiai and get rammed to oblivion just yet, but I can drill just fine, as well as do medium intensity randori. I can also do push-ups and other calisthenics where strain is placed on the shoulder if I go at a leisurely pace and keep the number of reps reasonable, so no Kimura antics for me just yet.

    Very frankly, having a weak lower body keeps my morote-seoi-nage down in the drain much more than my shoulder injury does! But still, thanks for minding.

    If kikool would post video, we could make a more accurate assessment.
    Hmm...maybe I can arrange that if you leave me a few weeks or so. Then I'll show you all about deficient fundamentals.

    Anyway, I'm off to vote now, thank you all for your helpful input.
    Last edited by kikoolol; 5/02/2011 1:20pm at .
  6. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2011 10:35am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kikoolol View Post
    Actually, just one shoulder (my left/hikite hand one) is majorly busted, thank FSM. I'm right handed so having my right shoulder busted would've been a PITA to overcome when it comes to studies and just general existence. Pretty hard to write in a sling!

    As Ben said, it's also healed up enough to do judo, or so the doctors say. I mean, I wouldn't go do shiai and get rammed to oblivion just yet, but I can drill just fine, as well as do medium intensity randori. I can also do push-ups and other calisthenics where strain is placed on the shoulder if I go at a leisurely pace and keep the number of reps reasonable, so no Kimura antics for me just yet.

    Very frankly, having a weak lower body keeps my morote-seoi-nage down in the drain much more than my shoulder injury does! But still, thanks for minding.



    Hmm...maybe I can arrange that if you leave me a few weeks or so. Then I'll show you all about deficient fundamentals.

    Anyway, I'm off to vote now, thank you all for your helpful input.
    Congratulations on electing a conservative majority.

    You might try working on your lower body strength a bit, it will help overall.

    Keep up the rehab on the shoulder and it sounds like you will eventually heal up.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/03/2011 10:52am

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by kikoolol View Post
    Very frankly, having a weak lower body keeps my morote-seoi-nage down in the drain much more than my shoulder injury does! But still, thanks for minding.
    Don't know about Ben, but this kind of thing sets off alarm bells for me.

    You often hear people say their lower body is too weak for Morote seoi nage. Now it may well be true that you could hit the squat rack and build up leg and core strength, pretty much everyone should. However, I rarely think its the cause of problems with Morote seoi nage.

    Normally people complain of poor leg strength/ lower body strength, because they go this low:

    Image is of Ippon seoi nage, but it serves for illustrative purposes.

    People go this low and then either try and press uke by standing back up or buckle under the load.

    Its actually really difficult for a normal person and especiall a beginner to go that low and still complete a throw unless uke's super light.

    So don't come in with straight legs, but don't get so low you're doing a full squat, because you're going to really struggle.

    I tried this about 4 months back when trying to Morote seoi on a 6ft 4 beast I went to low and ended up just toppling forward and faceplanting with him on top of me, much to everyone else's amusement.
  8. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2011 11:02am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hand throw. Seoi nage is a hand throw. The best seoi nage guys I know are moving under and behind uke -- and they get that low or lower. Uke moves forward, tori backward. Ideally, uke barely touches the back. It's not my throw, so YMMV.

    Watch Shozo Fujii:

    Last edited by Res Judicata; 5/03/2011 11:36am at . Reason: Fujii video
  9. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2011 4:36pm


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Hand throw. Seoi nage is a hand throw. The best seoi nage guys I know are moving under and behind uke -- and they get that low or lower. Uke moves forward, tori backward. Ideally, uke barely touches the back. It's not my throw, so YMMV.
    It can be done either way, with or without a lot of contact with the back. Okano did seoi-nage with a lot of back contact, and I don't think there's anyone on Earth that can credibly say his approach is wrong.

    I get low in order to use my hands to effectively pull uke forward and over the back, and because if I don't get low enough my elbow starts to hurt.
  10. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/03/2011 4:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hold 2 inches lower on the lapel.
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