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  1. kikoolol is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:12am


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    My reading comprehension lacks sometimes.

    If you can manage to get into a sleeve and lapel Osoto Gari of whatever variation, you can attack the far leg with Kosoto Gake or Gari. Ouchi Gari to Kosoto Gake/Gari can work well also. Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi or Hiza Guruma to Kosoto Gake/Gari is another possiblility. In a right vs right situation, you can make a direct Kosoto Gake/Gari attack against the lead leg as well, depending on how well you can maneuver them. You have to be very good at keeping the weight on the leg you attack, though.

    I suggest you spend a lot of time also on one forward throw, something with a sleeve and lapel grip. You will need something to the front, otherwise you are going to get predictible. A solid forward throw to work on is Tsurikomi Goshi. If you can get that down, then your tsurikomi skill will have improved, as well as your tai sabaki for most forward throws.

    Ben
    Thanks for the combination ideas.

    And tsurikomi-goshi...I never thought of that. That's actually a pretty good idea, especially since down the road when I get more proficient at it I can just switch to the sode variation for maximum airtime. Thanks a lot!
  2. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:27am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by kikoolol View Post
    Thanks for the combination ideas.

    And tsurikomi-goshi...I never thought of that. That's actually a pretty good idea, especially since down the road when I get more proficient at it I can just switch to the sode variation for maximum airtime. Thanks a lot!
    Tsurikomi Goshi is good to practice because of the Tsurikomi in the name. You can do tsurikomi practice/drills, then use Tsurikomi Goshi to throw without having to modify a lot. Once your tsurikomi is solid, you can transition to Uchi Mata, Harai Goshi, etc.

    Sode TSG is a great throw, but don't underestimate plain old TSG. Nobody does it anymore, but it's still a great throw.

    In ai yotsu, you can go Kosoto Gake to the lead leg, then left Sode TSG.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. kikoolol is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:34am


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Tsurikomi Goshi is good to practice because of the Tsurikomi in the name. You can do tsurikomi practice/drills, then use Tsurikomi Goshi to throw without having to modify a lot. Once your tsurikomi is solid, you can transition to Uchi Mata, Harai Goshi, etc.

    Sode TSG is a great throw, but don't underestimate plain old TSG. Nobody does it anymore, but it's still a great throw.

    In ai yotsu, you can go Kosoto Gake to the lead leg, then left Sode TSG.

    Ben
    Yeah, I thought as much...but to be honest I have somewhat of an aversion to harai-goshi and uchi-mata for being such frustrating experiments. For right now I'd rather move on and play with other forward throws until I cool down. >_>

    In any case, practicing tsurikomi should help general forward throw practice.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:37am

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    I'm going to disagree slightly with Ben, shock horror!

    Whilst I agree that you should be practicing the tsurikomi action and mastering it and that tsurikomi goshi is a great throw for teaching core skills like elbow management, getting hips low etc... and is a big throw when done properly.



    If you try and have tsurikomi goshi as you principal forward throw, you're going to be very frustrated for a very long time, because its a really hard throw to get especially seeing as you're coming to it 4 years in and a brown belt rather than as a rank beginner. Thus having many more bad habits that will need to be ironed out before you'll see progress with it.

    Although given your should problems I'm hesitant to suggest Morote seoi nage or Tai otoshi. Perhaps sticking with Ippon seoi nage would be best.
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:39am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by kikoolol View Post
    Yeah, I thought as much...but to be honest I have somewhat of an aversion to harai-goshi and uchi-mata for being such frustrating experiments. For right now I'd rather move on and play with other forward throws until I cool down. >_>

    In any case, practicing tsurikomi should help general forward throw practice.
    Like I said, transition to Uchi Mata or Harai Goshi. If you don't want to I'm not going to show up and force you.

    Part of the problem with your Uchi Mata and Harai Goshi was I'm sure your lack of tsurikomi skill. You might find that different after getting TSG down.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. kikoolol is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:43am


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Like I said, transition to Uchi Mata or Harai Goshi. If you don't want to I'm not going to show up and force you.

    Part of the problem with your Uchi Mata and Harai Goshi was I'm sure your lack of tsurikomi skill. You might find that different after getting TSG down.

    Ben
    Yes, perhaps so. You guys both know more about judo than I, and I'm really happy to have your input, don't get me wrong.

    What are good tsurikomi drills you would suggest working on?
  7. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:46am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I'm going to disagree slightly with Ben, shock horror!

    Whilst I agree that you should be practicing the tsurikomi action and mastering it and that tsurikomi goshi is a great throw for teaching core skills like elbow management, getting hips low etc... and is a big throw when done properly.



    If you try and have tsurikomi goshi as you principal forward throw, you're going to be very frustrated for a very long time, because its a really hard throw to get especially seeing as you're coming to it 4 years in and a brown belt rather than as a rank beginner. Thus having many more bad habits that will need to be ironed out before you'll see progress with it.

    Although given your should problems I'm hesitant to suggest Morote seoi nage or Tai otoshi. Perhaps sticking with Ippon seoi nage would be best.
    The problem as I see it is that he's an ikkyu and never learned fundamentals/basics properly, so, I agree with you. If he transitioned to more of a Sode type tsurikomi Goshi (which requires some specific work on how to handle the sleeves, grips, angles, etc), it could work as a main forward throw, except that the sleeve grip can make it more difficult to transition to other throws.

    If he gets the TSG down, then moving to Seoi Nage or even Tai Otoshi isn't out of the question. Use the TSG as a launching platform to get basic skills as you noted up to par, then branch out from there. At three practices a week, 6 months of TSG would go a long way, if he has someone who can teach it and give good guidance. One year would be more like it, though.

    So, it's too early for him to specialize in a forward throw. TSG offers the opportunity to get "caught up" so to speak on fundamentals, then use those core skills to try other forward throws.

    Plus, Osoto Gari to TSG is a piece of cake.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:48am

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by kikoolol View Post

    What are good tsurikomi drills you would suggest working on?
    This is what I do every session, but its a little advanced:


    I suggest you start with a combination of static 'half turns' as we call them over here, like so:

    I've picked this one, because its in Frog and you'll be able to get more out of it:




    For moving tsurikomi practice:
  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 11:54am

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    The problem as I see it is that he's an ikkyu and never learned fundamentals/basics properly, so, I agree with you. If he transitioned to more of a Sode type tsurikomi Goshi (which requires some specific work on how to handle the sleeves, grips, angles, etc), it could work as a main forward throw, except that the sleeve grip can make it more difficult to transition to other throws.

    If he gets the TSG down, then moving to Seoi Nage or even Tai Otoshi isn't out of the question. Use the TSG as a launching platform to get basic skills as you noted up to par, then branch out from there. At three practices a week, 6 months of TSG would go a long way, if he has someone who can teach it and give good guidance. One year would be more like it, though.

    So, it's too early for him to specialize in a forward throw. TSG offers the opportunity to get "caught up" so to speak on fundamentals, then use those core skills to try other forward throws.

    Plus, Osoto Gari to TSG is a piece of cake.

    Ben
    Well we don't actually know his Judo as we've never seen it, but your guess is probably correct that he hasn't drilled the fundamentals in depth.

    What I'm suggesting is striking a trade off between development and achievement. As you say to progress with TSG would take a minimum of 6-12 months and that's just to see some decent moving uchikomi/nagekomi.

    What I would 'proscribe' is a combination of tsurikomi drills, as outlined above, whilst focusing on his Ippon seoi nage. That way you build the core skills and he gets to achieve much quicker.

    I think that's a more rewarding learning process, because otherwise life is just going to be very frustrating as he puts all the work in for TSG and sees no throws come from it in randori. Although the benefits of tsurikomi practice will tranfer over to other throws in subtle ways.
  10. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2011 12:27pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by kikoolol View Post
    Yes, perhaps so. You guys both know more about judo than I, and I'm really happy to have your input, don't get me wrong.

    What are good tsurikomi drills you would suggest working on?
    Go to Judoka UK's blog, he has some articles. Otherwise, I'd have to show you in person.

    Just keep in mind that for forward throws, basic rule is uke goes to you, you do not go to uke.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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