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  1. Miguksaram is offline
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    Day Tripper/Dream Weaver

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2011 1:52pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    Arrogant, no. Bordering on paranoia yes. After the difficulty with Dealba and Duggan I understand their reasoning, although as I stated earlier I think it edges into overkill.
    Difficulty with DeAlba? Please explain? Even after they kicked him out and swore he was never a black belt (though he has proof), DeAlba still gave credit to them for their instructions. They were so petty that they filed a lawsuit to stop him from having any connection saying he was no longer allowed to teach their forms or have uniforms that looked like theirs. While Duggan and DeAlba left and did their own thing, which most likely is the reason why WHRD started doing cross training with BJJ and other stuff, because DeAlba and Duggan already started implementing that type of training.

    Any "difficulties" caused was due to WHRD trying to bully past instructors who started fairing better than them.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  2. Miguksaram is offline
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    Day Tripper/Dream Weaver

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2011 2:36pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    Perhaps I need to see the video series in its entirety but from it sounds like in this episode, Lee was the one who founded HKD or was running HKD, which neither of course is true. Lee was a student of DJN Ji, not an equal partner with him. If you ask KSN Suh he will give you a different story about how his organization was formed and his art's history that is radically different from Lee's version here.

    . To understand the period you need to realize that Korea was just emerging from decades of crushing abusive rule by Japan. Their culture had been raped ( literally in terms of their young daughters) and devalued. Many young Koreans had grown up ashamed of their own heritage.
    Not entirely true. There are many Koreans in that time who were still proud of their heritage and fought, and died, to keep it. You should look into the Korean Liberation Army for more details.
    In trying to restore pride and a sense of Nationalism to the Korean people Dr Lee ( who in the above video states that he was clearly creating a new art from the teachings of Suam Dosa as well as his other instructers) chose to utilize a common thread of pride ( one of the few remaining) to the Korean people; The ancient Hwarang.
    Funny since Korean Government favored the Taekwondo people as the unifier of Korea. Though his stories about the KCIA could very well be true. He might have thought he had governmental blessing when they were just fleecing him.

    In a nation re-emerging from oppression and striving to re-invent itself, it seems that this was an inspired thing to do. It provided his students ( and it was hoped Koreans in general) with a readily available foundation on which they could begin to build. His choice in choosing to use the name Hwa rang do in that environment seems perfectly reasonable and justifiable, and as such valid.
    Yes, it is reasonable, but the problem is that he linked it, or use to link it as an art that was handed down from the Hwarang military which it is not.

    The second reason I would site is the unique ( at least to my knowledge) feature in Hwa rang do of teaching traditional eastern healing as part of the core curriculum. This is one of the things that attracted me to it in the frist place. I have worked in cardiac surgery for over 20 years now, and I can state unequivocally that intimate knowledge of human anatomy and physiology is a tremendous aide in understanding the underlying physics of destruction that compose martial arts. The balance of learning healing ( bone setting, accupressure, accupuncture, and traditional eastern herbal medicine) as well as the destructive arts is completely in keeping with the values of the ancient Hwarang. The goal is to develop an active, logical, rational mind capable of discerning when and if to apply violence, not a mindless thug bent only on creating havoc. Since the curriculum of modern Hwa rang do attempts to teach the balanced skills of destruction and healing, I again feel it is valid to incorporate the Hwarang into the name of the art.
    I would recommend reading Samguk Yusa and a couple other Korean history books to get a better idea about the ideology and purpose of the Hwarang.

    As far as the iron-clad, irrefutable evidence that all or part of Hwa rang do dates back undiluted for greater than a thousand years, I don't think that is either provable or disproveable. In the history of Korea can you say with relative certainty that the Kingdom of Silla existed and in it were a group of nobles who were tutered in the military, mathmatic, philosophic, and governing arts? ..well yes I think that can be agreed on. There is good historic evidence that they were later betrayed and outlawed by their own (weak willed) monarch because he feared they were a threat to his centralized power. The remnants retreated to the hinterlands to avoid further persecution. It certainly would not be a unique situation that those displaced nobles would then pass on their knowledge ( martial, philosophic, religous, medicinal) to their progeny.
    Being disbanded and being persecuted for being Hwarang are two different things. Again start reading more Korean history. You will not find where the new King decided to kill them off. Many of them went into government work, merchants and some just became farmers or monks. I have yet to read anything in my studies that they were hunted down and persecuted for being hwarang.

    Do I think at least some of Um Yang Kwon ( the portion of Hwa rang do taught by Suam Dosa to Dr. Lee) survived un-adulterated to the present? I certainly believe it is possible since that which is ineffective or without merit would have been discarded over the course of centuries.
    That is if you by into the whole taught in secret by a monk story.

    They then go on to propagate that misunderstood history as if it were undeniable truth, leading only to further obfuscation of the original claims by the arts founder. So does Hwa rang do have it's roots in the ancient knowledge of the hwarang..yes. Just as modern boxing has it's roots in grecco-roman wrestling. The two have many concepts and movements in common, but inevitably there is some divergence. It doesn't make it any less true that it was its origin however.
    Then you can use the same argument that any art from Korea came from the Hwarang and that is just not true. You are drawing illogical conclusions. Taekkyon has kicking...Hwarangdo had kicking...therefore Taekkyon comes from Hwarangdo? Sorry but that is just a leap of faith in logic there. I can buy into the name as a way of building national pride, but to say that the art was derived from the ancient set of warriors? Sorry not happening.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  3. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2011 2:49pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They then go on to propagate that misunderstood history as if it were undeniable truth, leading only to further obfuscation of the original claims by the arts founder. So does Hwa rang do have it's roots in the ancient knowledge of the hwarang..yes. Just as modern boxing has it's roots in grecco-roman wrestling.
    Not to derail too much, but boxing predates Greco-Roman wrestling, which is from 1800s France.
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