232341 Bullies, 3757 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 21 to 30 of 53
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123 456 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Fenrirsget is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    12

    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 9:48pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First of all I would like to thank you all for taking the time to reply. You promote your site as a no bullshit forum for straight answers on martial arts. That is the reason I joined the site. I take it from the comments in this thread that most of you teach in martial arts, and have been training for decades. As I stated in my first post, I have only trained for about five years. My purpose in posting was not to defend anything. Being a cynic by nature I have reached a point in my training where I am trying to verify the veracity of what I am training in. My initial posts were intended to relay the history of HWD as well as the rational behind it's organization as I presently understand it. The fact that there appears to be a good bit of contrversy over HWD as a martial art is what prompted me to try and research further.
    Zendokan your concise explanation on the re-inventing of KMA history was very helpful in understanding why web searches on the origin of korean martial arts bring up such widely divergent dates. Per your suggestion I read the cummulative threads concerning HRD pulled up by the search engine. It provided much more information on the relative merits/ lack there of on HRD than I had previously found.
    Crackfox the video post of Matt Thornton brings up some very valid points. It has caused me to re-evaluate my conceptualization of basic technique/ advanced technique as a continuum. As I stated initially I'm a rational objectivist. If a rational, logical refutation of my current belief is presented, and I am not able to logically disprove that view, then I must accept that refutation as being true until such time as it is disproved in the future.
    Several of your comments have mirrored questions/ doubts that I had come to on my own. One of the biggest is the question of why formally joining another school while you train in HWD is such a big issue. A recurrent theme in the cummulative posts is that if a martial system has merrit, then practitioners will choose it over another of their own free will. The proof of it's validity should be how it fares in practicle application against other artists during sparring/grappling. Towards that end I have frequently questioned why HWD practitioners aren't allowed to enter open sparring/ grappling competitions. I can't completely discount what I've learned "as bullshit.From the begining. To the end" because so far it has been effective against the people I've sparred with outside of HWD.
    ItIsFake I concede the difference between testing your art against another, and truely cross training. Again, one of the things about HRD that bothers me is not being able to join other schools. I would prefer to formally work with an instucter in BJJ ( I admit freely that my grappling is weak) rather than pick up technique informally from the BJJ school members I grapple with as our scheduals allow. ( by the way did you intentionally use a Kia in your analogy because it is a Korean car, or was that just happenstance).
    As for the statements about Michael Echanis technique/ HWD not being taught to the SF military, I can only speak to what was being taught in the 1980's. Several long term friends and their team members from that time period all recall clearly using the close combat/ knife fighting/ stick fighting manuals during their training, and are of the belief that what they were being taught was derived from HWD. It was largely on their recommendation that I chose HWD to train in. What is presently being taught to SF I can't speak to. I'm an old guy and all the SF members I know are out of the military ( although several remain active on SWAT teams).
    MaverickZ for your sake I am trying to keep this post as brief as possible. I really don't mind you commenting on my martial art ability, but implying that I am liquistically challenged is uncalled for and untrue.
    In any event thank you all for your feedback. It's given me several things to consider about my future training in the martial arts ( now if only I could get out of that contract.....)
  2. Epeeist is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    314

    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 10:09pm


     Style: Kyokushin/Capoeira

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    First of all I would like to thank you all for taking the time to reply. You promote your site as a no bullshit forum for straight answers on martial arts. That is the reason I joined the site. I take it from the comments in this thread that most of you teach in martial arts, and have been training for decades. As I stated in my first post, I have only trained for about five years. My purpose in posting was not to defend anything. Being a cynic by nature I have reached a point in my training where I am trying to verify the veracity of what I am training in. My initial posts were intended to relay the history of HWD as well as the rational behind it's organization as I presently understand it. The fact that there appears to be a good bit of contrversy over HWD as a martial art is what prompted me to try and research further.
    Zendokan your concise explanation on the re-inventing of KMA history was very helpful in understanding why web searches on the origin of korean martial arts bring up such widely divergent dates. Per your suggestion I read the cummulative threads concerning HRD pulled up by the search engine. It provided much more information on the relative merits/ lack there of on HRD than I had previously found.
    Crackfox the video post of Matt Thornton brings up some very valid points. It has caused me to re-evaluate my conceptualization of basic technique/ advanced technique as a continuum. As I stated initially I'm a rational objectivist. If a rational, logical refutation of my current belief is presented, and I am not able to logically disprove that view, then I must accept that refutation as being true until such time as it is disproved in the future.
    Several of your comments have mirrored questions/ doubts that I had come to on my own. One of the biggest is the question of why formally joining another school while you train in HWD is such a big issue. A recurrent theme in the cummulative posts is that if a martial system has merrit, then practitioners will choose it over another of their own free will. The proof of it's validity should be how it fares in practicle application against other artists during sparring/grappling. Towards that end I have frequently questioned why HWD practitioners aren't allowed to enter open sparring/ grappling competitions. I can't completely discount what I've learned "as bullshit.From the begining. To the end" because so far it has been effective against the people I've sparred with outside of HWD.
    ItIsFake I concede the difference between testing your art against another, and truely cross training. Again, one of the things about HRD that bothers me is not being able to join other schools. I would prefer to formally work with an instucter in BJJ ( I admit freely that my grappling is weak) rather than pick up technique informally from the BJJ school members I grapple with as our scheduals allow. ( by the way did you intentionally use a Kia in your analogy because it is a Korean car, or was that just happenstance).
    As for the statements about Michael Echanis technique/ HWD not being taught to the SF military, I can only speak to what was being taught in the 1980's. Several long term friends and their team members from that time period all recall clearly using the close combat/ knife fighting/ stick fighting manuals during their training, and are of the belief that what they were being taught was derived from HWD. It was largely on their recommendation that I chose HWD to train in. What is presently being taught to SF I can't speak to. I'm an old guy and all the SF members I know are out of the military ( although several remain active on SWAT teams).
    MaverickZ for your sake I am trying to keep this post as brief as possible. I really don't mind you commenting on my martial art ability, but implying that I am liquistically challenged is uncalled for and untrue.
    In any event thank you all for your feedback. It's given me several things to consider about my future training in the martial arts ( now if only I could get out of that contract.....)

    Thank you for your reasonableness and I admire your calmness and eloquence in the face of questions and occasional insults. I say that because a lot of people ragequit within the first couple days of posting here. As a further question, do you have any idea why these breakway organizations formed such as Farang Musul or what have you personally heard, although it will certainly have a bias if it comes from an HWD perspective.
    Last edited by Epeeist; 4/28/2011 10:12pm at .
  3. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    34,093

    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 10:12pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do a search it is all over bullshido from both sides.
  4. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar

    fist first Philosopher

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Sanctuary of Pallas Athena (Belgium)
    Posts
    2,666

    Posted On:
    4/29/2011 3:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    First of all I would like to thank you all for taking the time to reply. You promote your site as a no bullshit forum for straight answers on martial arts. That is the reason I joined the site. I take it from the comments in this thread that most of you teach in martial arts, and have been training for decades. As I stated in my first post, I have only trained for about five years. My purpose in posting was not to defend anything. Being a cynic by nature I have reached a point in my training where I am trying to verify the veracity of what I am training in. My initial posts were intended to relay the history of HWD as well as the rational behind it's organization as I presently understand it. The fact that there appears to be a good bit of contrversy over HWD as a martial art is what prompted me to try and research further.
    Zendokan your concise explanation on the re-inventing of KMA history was very helpful in understanding why web searches on the origin of korean martial arts bring up such widely divergent dates. Per your suggestion I read the cummulative threads concerning HRD pulled up by the search engine. It provided much more information on the relative merits/ lack there of on HRD than I had previously found.
    Crackfox the video post of Matt Thornton brings up some very valid points. It has caused me to re-evaluate my conceptualization of basic technique/ advanced technique as a continuum. As I stated initially I'm a rational objectivist. If a rational, logical refutation of my current belief is presented, and I am not able to logically disprove that view, then I must accept that refutation as being true until such time as it is disproved in the future.
    Several of your comments have mirrored questions/ doubts that I had come to on my own. One of the biggest is the question of why formally joining another school while you train in HWD is such a big issue. A recurrent theme in the cummulative posts is that if a martial system has merrit, then practitioners will choose it over another of their own free will. The proof of it's validity should be how it fares in practicle application against other artists during sparring/grappling. Towards that end I have frequently questioned why HWD practitioners aren't allowed to enter open sparring/ grappling competitions. I can't completely discount what I've learned "as bullshit.From the begining. To the end" because so far it has been effective against the people I've sparred with outside of HWD.
    ItIsFake I concede the difference between testing your art against another, and truely cross training. Again, one of the things about HRD that bothers me is not being able to join other schools. I would prefer to formally work with an instucter in BJJ ( I admit freely that my grappling is weak) rather than pick up technique informally from the BJJ school members I grapple with as our scheduals allow. ( by the way did you intentionally use a Kia in your analogy because it is a Korean car, or was that just happenstance).
    As for the statements about Michael Echanis technique/ HWD not being taught to the SF military, I can only speak to what was being taught in the 1980's. Several long term friends and their team members from that time period all recall clearly using the close combat/ knife fighting/ stick fighting manuals during their training, and are of the belief that what they were being taught was derived from HWD. It was largely on their recommendation that I chose HWD to train in. What is presently being taught to SF I can't speak to. I'm an old guy and all the SF members I know are out of the military ( although several remain active on SWAT teams).
    MaverickZ for your sake I am trying to keep this post as brief as possible. I really don't mind you commenting on my martial art ability, but implying that I am liquistically challenged is uncalled for and untrue.
    In any event thank you all for your feedback. It's given me several things to consider about my future training in the martial arts ( now if only I could get out of that contract.....)
    I trained for 20 years in KMAs and it was difficult to take things over from that period to my new styles.

    If you have come to these conclusion already now, it will not get better with time.
    So maybe it's time to look around for other Combat Sports.

    While "Muay Thai + Judo = Self-defense" and "Muay Thai + BJJ = MMA" are the sung mantra's here, I would suggest not to go to fast in that direction or you wouldn't like it.

    Look around for a "Full-Contact" (the style a.k.a. American Kickboxing) school for stand-up, this style would match better with the "Tae Soo Do" background and will a good transition style for a few years before evolving to Sanshou/SanDa or Muay Thai.

    For the grappling I would advice a Judo (not Yudo!) school that isn't completely focused on competition. With that I mean that there has to be a healthy balance between stand-up (clinch, throws) and groundfighting.
    Later on (when you hit Shodan in Judo) you can specialise into a certain field by training additional styles like
    - groundfighting = BJJ, Wrestling, etc...
    - Different types of throws = Wrestling, SAMBO, Shuai Jiao, etc...
    - Wristlocks = your previous knowledge from Hwa rang Do, Aikido, etc...

    Just see that your basic arts have an "open" competition policy, because that's one of the few things that will keep the art evolving and honest.
    The fun part of training Martial arts/Combat Sports is not reaching the destination, but the journay to it. Have fun.

    And the MOST IMPORTANT THING while posting on BS.Net = please use paragraphs! It will make your wall of texts better to read and will invite other posters to read it. Most of us won't even take time when confronted with a wall of text.

    Hope that this will help you in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  5. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    6,928

    Posted On:
    4/29/2011 9:20am

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    MaverickZ for your sake I am trying to keep this post as brief as possible. I really don't mind you commenting on my martial art ability, but implying that I am liquistically challenged is uncalled for and untrue.
    Actually I know nothing concrete and factual about your individual abilities. What we can deduce to almost certainty on an online message board IS your linguistic abilities. Which are of course NOT what I was commenting on. I was commenting on your writing and grammatical style. Both of which are awful.

    Just by reading the few sentences I could actually make out in that wall-o-post before my eyes began to swim, you come off as a reasonable person, at least in that last wall-o-post. But god... you really do a disservice with that writing style.
  6. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    34,093

    Posted On:
    4/29/2011 11:30am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    First of all I would like to thank you all for taking the time to reply. You promote your site as a no bullshit forum for straight answers on martial arts. That is the reason I joined the site. I take it from the comments in this thread that most of you teach in martial arts, and have been training for decades. As I stated in my first post, I have only trained for about five years.
    Only a little more than the time I spent in HWD. What you have been given is a spoon fed history of HWD. Much of what you said about Dealba and the cut ties is after almost two decades of working out their version of the "truth."

    My purpose in posting was not to defend anything. Being a cynic by nature I have reached a point in my training where I am trying to verify the veracity of what I am training in. My initial posts were intended to relay the history of HWD as well as the rational behind it's organization as I presently understand it.
    I spent 15 years in a BS art and I defended it as well. Go through the many threads here and watch the contradictions. Every art has history problems and wild stories, but when the exaggerations and falsehoods outweigh the facts there is a problem. That's HWD.

    For example, BJJ has sanitized some of their losses and have inflated wins in some cases. Still, you can find facts that back up the actual truth about the history of the art itself. You can't do that with any aspect of HWD. Notice, I am not even talking about effectiveness or legitimacy of the techniques.

    Also, you shouldn't have to train basics in a separate art ever. You don't do pre-Judo you do Judo basics in Judo. You don't do pre-BJJ you do BJJ basics in BJJ.


    The fact that there appears to be a good bit of contrversy over HWD as a martial art is what prompted me to try and research further.
    Yep, I knew two people who are now demoted former instructors. One was my former instructor. It involved money and cross-training IMO.

    ItIsFake I concede the difference between testing your art against another, and truely cross training. Again, one of the things about HRD that bothers me is not being able to join other schools. I would prefer to formally work with an instucter in BJJ ( I admit freely that my grappling is weak) rather than pick up technique informally from the BJJ school members I grapple with as our scheduals allow. ( by the way did you intentionally use a Kia in your analogy because it is a Korean car, or was that just happenstance).
    Both. I knew it was Korean, but it is a good little car that would be considered low end like many KMAs.

    As for the statements about Michael Echanis technique/ HWD not being taught to the SF military, I can only speak to what was being taught in the 1980's. Several long term friends and their team members from that time period all recall clearly using the close combat/ knife fighting/ stick fighting manuals during their training, and are of the belief that what they were being taught was derived from HWD.
    Yes, again I didn't say it wasn't. My point is that it isn't any type of validation because, the Military used everything from Karate to fake ass ninjitsu to refine their systems. In other words, people see what they want. Yes, I got that song and dance as well when I joined. The funny thing was it was Dealba's knife techniques used in the military. See if Dealba has some videos on youtube.

    Actually:



    Here's something interesting, go look at the history of HWD and Michael. Now, go look around the web and tell me if you see the discrepancy I found.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 4/29/2011 11:41am at .
  7. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    6,928

    Posted On:
    4/29/2011 1:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know what's really great. I leave for like two years, come back, and IT'S THE SAME FUCKING CONVERSATION. I love it.
  8. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    34,093

    Posted On:
    4/29/2011 1:36pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What did you expect? People never change. Most people go off their friends recommendations and research after the fact. It is even easier to get information now and people are still lazy. The arguments stay they same the arts change.

    Krav is the New Chun.
    MMA is the New BJJ.
  9. Fenrirsget is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    12

    Posted On:
    4/30/2011 3:45pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just wanted to add a quick follow up. ItIsFake I don't know if the deiscrepancy you were referring to was Echanis death in Sept. and his subsequent 3rd dan rank award in Nov. of the same year, but that is what I began investigating. Turned up a very interesting old thread from 2000 regarding Echanis and his history with HWD. Several of the posts are by Bob Duggan.
    It is a long thread, but was very interesting (for me at least) reading.
    I've included the link if anyone else is interested in reading it.
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh....Echanis/page6
  10. Sam Browning is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    9,886

    Posted On:
    4/30/2011 7:35pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I tried to run down the old claim that Echanis taught SEALS in Norfolk Virgina through Steve Robinson, who is an ex team member of SEAL Team One. After asking some collegues, Steve told me there was one who claimed that Echanis had officially instructed SEALS during the 70s, and other who contradicted this first source by saying that Echanis had permission to teach students who were private clients on the base in question.

    The bottom line, is that there is no evidence that any system Echanis taught to a small group of students in the 1970s on US government property, became the basis for an officially endorsed hand to hand fighting system though that's certainly the impression one might get from reading the titles of his books. Given that in the link you post Bob Duggan says that Echanis claims to have been a sniper in Vietnam with 29 kills when he wasn't, it appears he enjoyed bullshitting people about some parts of his life.

    Since we've seen so many military instruction claims we tell the people to produce paperwork that demonstrates they are teaching an approved system. Jerry Peterson was able to do so. (even though SCARS was only used by the SEALS for about two years) Paul Vunuck(sp) can generate such letters, the Navy acknowledges Duane Dieter now teaches their SEALS, I could go on, but Echanis' devotees cannot prove the same about their particular guru.

    Historical Claims: I have a BA in History. (If you want to check I'll email you the name of the college and date) and the rules for establishing a chronological claim is pretty well accepted within history, and similar fields such as title searching.

    If someone claims that they teach a 1,000 year old art, you nail down the name of each teacher, the dates, they were born and died, where they lived, who they studied with, and every surviving historical document that supports such a claim. For example if Joe Blow is the 5th master of Koolaide Ryu and he supposedly taught in Amsterdam, in 1760, finding proof that there was a Joe Blow who lived in Amsterdam between 1730 and 1790 supports this claim. If you can't find a trace of him, or he was aged 5 in 1760, there are holes in the story.

    With the exception of a few of the Japanese Arts, (Specifically the Sword arts) there is no Martial Art which can establish close to a 1,000 year lineage as Hwa Rang Do claims. It doesn't apear that the current master of the art can convincingly trace his art back prior to his grand mastership. Faced with such a lack of evidence it appears he put it together himself, from various other arts he studied and added a 1,000 year history back to a similarly named group of warriors in Korea.
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123 456 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.