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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2011 11:56am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    And yes if you leave HRD to train in another art, you are stricken from their official roster. Is this overkill in erring on the side of caution to protect their reputation and curb unsactioned expansion; possibly, but those are their terms. They are clear about it when you join, and if you have issue with it you can always choose another art.
    That doesn't strike you as arrogant?
  2. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2011 2:04pm

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     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hwa rang do... awful. Just awful. Simply the worst.

    I've seriously considered adopting the business model.
  3. Fenrirsget is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 2:19am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First of all let me thank you for providing me with the link to " McDojo" so that I have a hard definition to work from. Admitedly in my earlier post I was working from inferrence by the way it was applied. Perhaps that was unclear, but that is why I chose to use the " if I understand the term correctly" phrase since at the time I had not found the link you provided. It was hard for me to imagine that the term McDojo could be used in anything other than derogitory fashion however.
    In reading the provided definition I did note the following lines :
    it also implies that the teaching standards of such school are much lower than that of other martial arts schools, or that the school presents non-martial arts training as martial arts. Sometimes, a McDojo's practices may border on fraud, which is sometimes called the practice of bullshido.

    If the teaching standards are much lower, non- martial arts are taught as martial arts, and it may border on fraud is there any way the style could be construed as effective? I fail to see your argument on how my choosing to use the term "ineffctive" as a condensment of the above concepts in any way misconstrues the definition you provided. As such I don't recognize why you list it as a point of contention.
    In terms of paying twice to be taught the same concepts in Tae soo do and Hwa rang do perhaps I have inadequately explained the structuring. TSD is focused on teaching the basic mechanics of martial arts( back kick, chop kick, elbow strike etc.), and then merging them into a reasonable competence in chaining the techniques together for sparring, self-defense, and grappling. If you have trained in a different martial art previously, you don't need to train in TSD. Hwa rang do uses the base established from either TSD or your previous martial training to build more complex techniques and applications. You don't pay for learning the same skills twice. HWD focuses on advancing the skills you already posses, not repeating them.
    As for the "we teach everything to everyone" umbrella you mention; does this somehow imply that all MMA based schools are McDojos. Isn't that their premise...they take what is good and effective from all martial schools and merge it into a practicle, effective style?
    But then again isn't that a basic tennent of any viable martial art. Take what is effective and utilize it when the situation is most advantageous. You seem to be critisizing HWD for doing exactly that. You don't pay anything extra to be instructed in gotogi. It is part of the compehensive training. If it is the validity of what is being taught that is in question, then why does the miltary continue to use techniques that originate in HWD ? Michael Echanis' close quarter combat/ knife fighting/ stick fighting that is still taught to the American SF is all derived from his training by Dr. Lee in HWD. Grappling wasn't SUDDENLY discovered in HWD, but the extent to which it was taught and emphasized was increased. Is your argument then that greater emphasis on teaching ground fighting is a negative thing in martial arts?
    As for the contracts; they are based on an agreed level to which you will advance. It may be for as short as a one month trial, an atainment of three belt/ sash ranks, six belt/sash ranks, or nine belt/sash ranks. Advancement in rank is strictly based on merit, not time spent or classes attended.( and yes I have seen people failed at tests who needed to repeat and perfect that material before they were advanced; no additional cost was encrued). Before I signed the contract I also compared the fees to several other local martial art schools that had monthly fee based sceduals with no long term required commitment. Comparitively the cost was almost the same for all of them. If you do sign the longer contract there is a price break. On the other hand I entered martial arts with the intention of training long term, so I really didn't see a long term contract as a disadvantageous thing. So by the system of contracts that HWD uses it doesn't matter how long it takes you to reach your belt rank. If most people attain a certain rank in an average of 3 years, but you take 5 years, you don't encure any additional cost for the additional time. In monthly contract schools you would. By the definition of Mcdojo you provided that would make the month to month, non-long term contract schools the greater offender as they are more adroit at removing money from your wallet.
    As for not cross training being a sign of a Mcdojo, I fail to find that anywhere in the link you provided. If however we do agree on not cross training as a defining characteristic of a McDojo, then again I would point out that I am encouraged to spar and grapple with people from other arts. Doesn't that constitute cross training. The prohibition inherent in TSD/HWD is that you will not officially join another school. Perhaps you see that as a subtle difference, but I feel it is an important one. In terms of a school fitting all the definitions for a Mcdojo that your link provides the most prevelent one in my area is Karate America. They have absolutely no prohibition about officially joining as many other schools as you wish while you train with them.
    As to your assertion that revoking your official standing when you leave HWD to train in another art has nothing to do with maintaining controle of the curriculum, or controling unlicensed expansion you are absolutely incorrect. I believe the vast majority of that decision occured after people like DeAlba and Duggan had trained for a short time in HWD, and then left to open their own variant schools while claiming to teach HWD. The revocation of their ( and subsequently everyone else who leaves to open their own school) official standing in HWD was done primarily to prevent them from claiming to teach HWD. My statements you quote when taken jointly as they were written reflect my belief that this is the primary motivation behind that decision. The in no way contradict themselves.
    As to BJJ not having ties to Hapkido.....well mia culpa. I never claimed to be a martial art historian. On the other hand, since both judo and hapkido have their origins in jujitsu, and BJJ is derived from judo, is there really that much significant difference in the techniques used to twist and break a joint among the three arts? If so please feel free to educate me on them.
    All that having been said, I think I understand the definitions of the words I choose to use just fine.
  4. Fenrirsget is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 2:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    That doesn't strike you as arrogant?
    Arrogant, no. Bordering on paranoia yes. After the difficulty with Dealba and Duggan I understand their reasoning, although as I stated earlier I think it edges into overkill.
  5. Fenrirsget is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 2:27am

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     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ View Post
    Hwa rang do... awful. Just awful. Simply the worst.

    I've seriously considered adopting the business model.
    Could you possibly expand on that a little. What exactly do you find awful.....just awful about HWD?
  6. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is online now
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    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 3:29am

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     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    Could you possibly expand on that a little. What exactly do you find awful.....just awful about HWD?
    As an ex-KMA enthusiast I'll chime in. This will be a brief and compact explination since all the information is already on Bullshido.Net. Just use the Search function and several hours to read.

    Here it goes:
    Most present day KMAs can be traced back to Shotokan Karate, Daito-Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu and Judo since the original culture was almost completely destroyed by the Japanese occupation and the civil war that followed afterwards.

    Shotokan evolved into Kong Soo Do, Tae Soo Do, Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do and Soo Bakh Do
    Judo evolved into Yudo.
    Daito-Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu evolved into Hapkido.

    Unfortunally a nationalistic way of thinking and anti-Japanese feelings that were strong in South Korea (probably also in North Korea- changed the history of all these arts from JMA to based on 2000 year old systems. A lot of "new" backgrounds were fabricated that it damaged the credibility of KMAs and in combination with a rapid expand strategy, the quality of KMA instructors deminished with every generation.

    Now about Hwa Rang Do, it started as Hapkido with Yudo incorporated, nothing more, nothing less. The name Hwa Rang do wasn't chosen as a tribute to Korean history, but as a simple marketing ploy. In the beginning Hwa Rang Do was marketed as the Martial Art of the Hwa Rang.
    And while the Hwa Rang are portraited as Korean Samurai, we aren't sure nowadays that they were that at all. There is more and more information coming available that the Hwa Rang could have been the equivalent of Boyscout/bording school for the kids of the Korean elite in the Sylla Kingdom.

    So the name Hwa Rang Do was a marketing scheme to advertise a Hapkido/Yudo mix.

    Tae Soo Do came later, I think around early 2000 and is nothing more than some "Tang Soo Do" clone (a.k.a. Shotokan with more Taekwondo kicking) used as an undergraduate program for Hwa rang Do and again there's some ego in the naming of it since Tae Soo Do is one of the original names considered for Taekwondo.

    Now they have added Gotogi to the curriculum (since about 2005) or with other words Brazilian Jiu Jitsu with an Korean name and I suspect that there's again a connection to an "old" Korean Martial Art, maybe Ssireum.

    Now about the quality problems with these "new" add-ons: Tae Soo Do got distilled from the Lee's knowledge of Taekwondo and the stand-up of Hwa Rang Do instead of getting Tang Soo Do/Soo Bakh Do experts in to teach it. Luckily most Koreans have a background in Taekwondo besides there main art so it's not so bad in itself.
    But it will get worser since it's restraint to Tae Soo Do competitions only and crosstraining is frowned on. That's how things work in a controlled/closed environment.

    The Gotogi is worser. It's BJJ given by the Lee's, but I suspect that their level would be blue belt or purple belt (in BJJ) tops. Again crosstraining is frowned on, so Gotogi can not evolve by constant testing against BJJers.

    I walked out of my Hapkido Dojang when the rules changed and it became forbidden to crosstrain without the approval of my Hapkido teacher.
    Now I train Savate, Muay Thai, Judo and BJJ and every teacher encourages crosstraining. That for me is a sign that an art can stand the test against other arts even with a different ruleset and won't lose students, because that is the only reason why crosstraining becomes forbidden and that's also the reason why you get stripped of rank when you leave the organisation. Nobody wants to lose the rank where they invested so much time and sweat in to obtain it.
    I still have my rank in Taekwondo, Kyuk Too ki, Hoshinsul and Hapkido, but I don't teach them at all, because I have moved on to Savate, Muay Thai, Judo and BJJ.

    Hope that this will help you, but use the search function because there's a lot of info over Hwa Rang Do and other KMAs on this site.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  7. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 9:54am

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     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    Could you possibly expand on that a little. What exactly do you find awful.....just awful about HWD?
    All of it.
    The entire art.
    It's all bullshit.
    From the beginning. To the end.

    To the weirdo defenders like you who come online and assault random people who don't deserve it with walls of text. Your inability to wield the written word is only barely surpassed by your inability to wield your body as a weapon.

    Hwa Rang Do sucks. It sucks hard.

    And you choosing to practice the art and associate with the group makes you a worse person by association. I would get away while you still can. Before you devote your entire life to that garbage. So that one day twenty years from now, when you suddenly experience an actual martial art, god forbid it be BJJ, and turn into another goddamn Shumagorath and begin a crusade to tell all of us about how great BJJ is and how awful your previous art was and how we should all be practicing BJJ. I don't think my frail heart could take that sort of abuse.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 10:11am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    In reading the provided definition I did note the following lines :
    it also implies that the teaching standards of such school are much lower than that of other martial arts schools, or that the school presents non-martial arts training as martial arts. Sometimes, a McDojo's practices may border on fraud, which is sometimes called the practice of bullshido.
    A Kia is not a BMW does that mean it is ineffective at getting you from point A to point B? No. "May" is the Keyword. I used to think TKD was all complete and utter garbage. Guess what? I have met some really good TKD practitioners at decent schools. These schools have some of the MCdojo trappings, to keep the school open, and trained in a Fashion acceptable to this website. Guess what that means? TKD can be a Mcdojo art that has good schools and MAY contain fraudulent practices.

    If the teaching standards are much lower, non- martial arts are taught as martial arts, and it may border on fraud is there any way the style could be construed as effective?
    See the above description of May.

    I fail to see your argument on how my choosing to use the term "ineffctive" as a condensment of the above concepts in any way misconstrues the definition you provided. As such I don't recognize why you list it as a point of contention.
    Ineffective does not equal lower or much lower standards. Do you need examples?
    In terms of paying twice to be taught the same concepts in Tae soo do and Hwa rang do perhaps I have inadequately explained the structuring. TSD is focused on teaching the basic mechanics of martial arts( back kick, chop kick, elbow strike etc.), and then merging them into a reasonable competence in chaining the techniques together for sparring, self-defense, and grappling. If you have trained in a different martial art previously, you don't need to train in TSD. Hwa rang do uses the base established from either TSD or your previous martial training to build more complex techniques and applications. You don't pay for learning the same skills twice. HWD focuses on advancing the skills you already posses, not repeating them.
    Read that to yourself slowly. If you don't see the problem I'll explain the issue. Here's a hint, you think an art with 5 ranks, doesn't do the same thing you just described without creating two entirely new arts? Your argument is one art teaches you the basics, that you should be learning in the main art, is necessary and valid? That's ridiculous. Yes, you pay for the same thing twice.

    By the definition of Mcdojo you provided that would make the month to month, non-long term contract schools the greater offender as they are more adroit at removing money from your wallet.
    ----Getting an old post---

    As for the "we teach everything to everyone" umbrella you mention; does this somehow imply that all MMA based schools are McDojos.
    BJJ, Muay Thai and Boxing = the multiple things borrowed and taught in HWD? One guy knowing three or Three coaches teaching them separately, to one person, is not the same as one Grand Master knowing 10-12 styles, creating an art and then modifying it to match the current Martial Art flavor of the decade. No not even close. If we include all the basic belts and restart of HWD you are close to twenty belts. BJJ and Judo do the samething with FIVE BELTS. Hell BJJ awards belts with no test fees, which IMO is incorporated into the monthly payments. Still, as you note the fees are comparable and you have to pay Test fees on top of your contract.
    Isn't that their premise...they take what is good and effective from all martial schools and merge it into a practicle, effective style?
    Go train before making this leap in logic. The answer is no. You train EACH STYLE and are taught how to incorporate it in to your own personal way of fighting. Then, for your style, you are taught how take what is effective form each style. You learn BJJ or submission wrestling, in its unadulterated form. You learn Muay Thai or another striking art, in its unadulterated form. You learn boxing in its unadulterated form. You do not learn an altered form of BJJ, filtered through a Korean Martial art, 4000 years old and added a decade ago.

    But then again isn't that a basic tennent of any viable martial art. Take what is effective and utilize it when the situation is most advantageous.
    Yes, and this is a straw-man argument.

    You seem to be critisizing HWD for doing exactly that.
    See the earlier explanation you are wrong because, they aren't doing anything remotley close to what I just described. An MMAer learns from an instructor of an art that they personally trained. Many MMA school have a guy who has boxed for years, has at least 5 or more years in BJJ (around purple belt), has had years of Muay Thai and in many cases fought MMA. At a Different school they will have a coach for EACH art they teach for example a separate BJJ coach, A boxing Coach, and a Muay Thai Coach.

    You don't pay anything extra to be instructed in gotogi.
    Which, on a cursory glance, has no legit tie to Sserium and is what many would call Bullshido.

    It is part of the compehensive training. If it is the validity of what is being taught that is in question, then why does the miltary continue to use techniques that originate in HWD ?
    Dude don't even go there. The military uses everything under the sun this is not the truth at all.
    Michael Echanis' close quarter combat/ knife fighting/ stick fighting that is still taught to the American SF is all derived from his training by Dr. Lee in HWD.
    Please go raise the Special ZForces argument somewhere else as it is mainly Bullshit. Paul Vanuk is one of the few instructors, I have seen, that provides actual documents for training the military. His certs are worlds apart from claims like the one you just dropped.

    Grappling wasn't SUDDENLY discovered in HWD, but the extent to which it was taught and emphasized was increased.
    Yes, it was because it was not taught in the nineties. Suddenly, they found hidden ground fighting in the last decade when BJJ became huge? No. That is a Mcdojo tactic and heads into Bullshido.
    Is your argument then that greater emphasis on teaching ground fighting is a negative thing in martial arts?
    When you create two bullshido styles and make people believe they always existed yes, it is negative. People like you show up and think they know what they are talking about and further continue the lies. Yes, I said it lies.
    As for the contracts; they are based on an agreed level to which you will advance. It may be for as short as a one month trial, an atainment of three belt/ sash ranks, six belt/sash ranks, or nine belt/sash ranks. Advancement in rank is strictly based on merit, not time spent or classes attended.( and yes I have seen people failed at tests who needed to repeat and perfect that material before they were advanced; no additional cost was encrued).
    See above example of 5 belts vs twenty.

    Before I signed the contract I also compared the fees to several other local martial art schools that had monthly fee based sceduals with no long term required commitment. Comparitively the cost was almost the same for all of them.
    Doesn't negate my point because, you asked about your school being a Mcdojo. I can't compare those schools to yours and I won't take your word on this point.

    If you do sign the longer contract there is a price break. On the other hand I entered martial arts with the intention of training long term, so I really didn't see a long term contract as a disadvantageous thing. So by the system of contracts that HWD uses it doesn't matter how long it takes you to reach your belt rank. If most people attain a certain rank in an average of 3 years, but you take 5 years, you don't encure any additional cost for the additional time. In monthly contract schools you would. By the definition of Mcdojo you provided that would make the month to month, non-long term contract schools the greater offender as they are more adroit at removing money from your wallet.
    MCdojo tactic. So, the test fees are now included in the contract? They weren't before.

    As for not cross training being a sign of a Mcdojo, I fail to find that anywhere in the link you provided. If however we do agree on not cross training as a defining characteristic of a McDojo, then again I would point out that I am encouraged to spar and grapple with people from other arts.
    No, not cross training.
    Doesn't that constitute cross training.
    No, that is testing your art. Training is getting actual instruction and you know that just by what you typed below.
    The prohibition inherent in TSD/HWD is that you will not officially join another school.
    Then you can't cross-train.

    Perhaps you see that as a subtle difference, but I feel it is an important one.
    That means you see it as a subtle difference. I do not.

    In terms of a school fitting all the definitions for a Mcdojo that your link provides the most prevelent one in my area is Karate America.
    Guess what will happen next?

    They have absolutely no prohibition about officially joining as many other schools as you wish while you train with them.
    So, they are a mcdojo because they let you join other schools? That means they let you cross-train. That means they are better than HWD on that one point alone.
    As to your assertion that revoking your official standing when you leave HWD to train in another art has nothing to do with maintaining controle of the curriculum, or controling unlicensed expansion you are absolutely incorrect.
    Wrong. Unlicensed expansion? You absolutely do not know what you are talking about.

    I believe the vast majority of that decision occured after people like DeAlba and Duggan had trained for a short time in HWD, and then left to open their own variant schools while claiming to teach HWD.
    Wrong.

    The revocation of their ( and subsequently everyone else who leaves to open their own school) official standing in HWD was done primarily to prevent them from claiming to teach HWD. My statements you quote when taken jointly as they were written reflect my belief that this is the primary motivation behind that decision. The in no way contradict themselves.
    Wrong.

    I do enjoy how it is now A SHORT TIME of training. Yes, that is hilarious.
    As to BJJ not having ties to Hapkido.....well mia culpa. I never claimed to be a martial art historian. On the other hand, since both judo and hapkido have their origins in jujitsu, and BJJ is derived from judo, is there really that much significant difference in the techniques used to twist and break a joint among the three arts? If so please feel free to educate me on them.
    You just learned a lesson on not speaking about things you do not know or understand.Thanks for showing me you enjoy speaking from an uninformed position. Go to youtube, look up Hapkido, BJJ, and Judo and then you tell me the major differences.
    All that having been said, I think I understand the definitions of the words I choose to use just fine.
    Of course you do and you still failed to grasp the point.

    After the difficulty with Dealba and Duggan I understand their reasoning, although as I stated earlier I think it edges into overkill.
    Bullshit through and through. You weren't there and the fact you think this is even remotely true is why people call it a cult. Funny how 20 years and Dealba is this horrible bogey man. Money is the root of the Bullshit in this story.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 4/28/2011 10:30am at .
  9. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 10:35am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    In terms of paying twice to be taught the same concepts in Tae soo do and Hwa rang do perhaps I have inadequately explained the structuring. TSD is focused on teaching the basic mechanics of martial arts( back kick, chop kick, elbow strike etc.), and then merging them into a reasonable competence in chaining the techniques together for sparring, self-defense, and grappling. If you have trained in a different martial art previously, you don't need to train in TSD. Hwa rang do uses the base established from either TSD or your previous martial training to build more complex techniques and applications. You don't pay for learning the same skills twice. HWD focuses on advancing the skills you already posses, not repeating them.
    As for the "we teach everything to everyone" umbrella you mention; does this somehow imply that all MMA based schools are McDojos. Isn't that their premise...they take what is good and effective from all martial schools and merge it into a practicle, effective style?
    But then again isn't that a basic tennent of any viable martial art. Take what is effective and utilize it when the situation is most advantageous. You seem to be critisizing HWD for doing exactly that. You don't pay anything extra to be instructed in gotogi. It is part of the compehensive training.
    So there are two things I'd like to address here - the idea of mixed martial arts vs the hodge-podge approach, and why having both HWD and TSD is bullshit.

    First up you ask what the difference between "we teach everything to everyone" and MMA is. I don't think you've quite grasped what MMA is. It is not a matter of "take[ing] what is good and effective from all martial schools and merge it into a practicle [sic], effective style". It is about teaching only the things that are of practical use in a fighting situation. All the bases have to be covered, but otherwise everything is kept as simple as possible - nothing is taught that isn't necessary, and (in a good school) the individual phases are taught by somebody who is really qualified in that phase.

    This is very different from throwing in whatever is currently fashionable. How do you think the people learning gotogi would fare in a NAGA competition? Could the people doing striking hold their own in a K1 style event? What kind of competition record do any of these people have? They're learning so many things that it all becomes confusing, and on top of this the instructors aren't really qualified to be teaching these things, as they've only taken them up themselves reletively recently. I've experienced this happening in "traditional" jujutsu - it's a mess.

    Anyway on to the TSD/HWD separation. This is a classic money maker in the world of martial arts: Tell people they have to learn a bunch of crap before they can get to the good stuff. It makes no sense if you have any experience of the practical styles where you learn the most useful stuff first, then you spend most of your time perfecting the basics, and maybe learning a few tricks to deal with edge cases. Matt Thornton has a nice description of it.
    Last edited by CrackFox; 4/28/2011 10:42am at .
  10. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 10:55am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If it is the validity of what is being taught that is in question, then why does the miltary continue to use techniques that originate in HWD
    I'm pretty sure that Echanis' teachings aren't used in an official capacity by the military. Their latest combative training manual is available, and it's basically BJJ and kickboxing, not a series of double stick strikes followed by a mortal kombat sweep.
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