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  1. Fenrirsget is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2011 6:32pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Confused by hwa rand do comments.

    During a recent search for forum postings on Tae soo do/ Hwa rang do I was somewhat mystified. I have trained through all of Tae soo do, and I am now a green sash in Hwa rang do. There seems to be a lot of misinformation on this branch of Korean martial art, so I thought I'd relate my own experiences.
    First let me clear up the idea that there is no sparring involved in the training. Since almost the first day, we have trained in stand up sparring. It involves head strikes with hands and feet as well as body shots above the belt. Kicks below the belt are discurraged because of the potential for joint injury, although blocking kicks are allowed. Grabs, sweeps, and throws are a valid part of sparring, and actively encouraged as a practicle application of joint lock techniques. If the fight goes to the ground the sparring is stopped and returned to stand-up position. The reason for this is that ground sparring is done as a seperate training function (Gotogi).
    My experience may be somewhat different because there are just not very many of us in FL, but my instructors actively encourage me to spar with people from other martial arts. There is a lot of crossover in Tang soo do and Taekwondo as you might expect; but there is also a lot of similarity to Shotokan and Kung Fu (at least mantis and shaolin styles) Rather than taking this as proof that all styles steal from each other, I have always thought it a simple permutation of the fact that the human body can only move in so many directions. This was driven home recently when I was watching something on Loa ( traditional hawian martial art) and recognized several of the exact joint locks, and joint lock combinations I have learned. My first thought was not Aha! the hawians were obviously trained by koreans! Instead I thought how ridiculous it is to lay claim to the idea that if I put the wrist and elbow at 90 degrees and turn them the opposite way they are meant to go, pain and injury ensue. I'm sure someone had discovered that before there were words to describe it.
    My experience with sparring with people from different martial schools has been fairly positive. I find myself the equal of anyone who has been training for the same amount of time, and able to learn new nuances from those who have been sparring for considerably longer. It is hard for me to believe that a " McDojo" as I've seen hwa rang do refered to here would be capable of imparting that kind of flexability and skill in the ring.
    I also have had the chance to use gotugi grappling with several BJJ practitioners. I have to say that there is very little difference in the practicle application other than the fact that we usually start from a standing position, which puts much greater emphasis on the initial rush and take down. BJJ does not seem to emphasize strikes or kicks. Subsequently I help train my BJJ sparring partners in stand up strikes, and they help me refine my ground game.
    Overall I've had nothing but a positive learning experience from Tae soo do/ Hwa rang do. I haven't experienced any of the "cultish behavior" that I've seen referenced in prvios threads. Certainly the other practitionars of my art are proud of the work they have done to achieve their present level of skill, and feel that the highest ranking member of the art (Dr Joo Bang Lee) is a knowlegable and honorable man. I would be suprised if this were not true of any school of martial arts; otherwise why would an individual stay and train there.
    Anyway, that is in brief a synopsis of my experience in TSD/HWD. If there are any questions I can help answer ( as I didn't see any posts from others who have actually trained in HWD for any length of time) please feel free to forward them on.
  2. Epeeist is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2011 11:08pm


     Style: Kyokushin/Capoeira

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    During a recent search for forum postings on Tae soo do/ Hwa rang do I was somewhat mystified. I have trained through all of Tae soo do, and I am now a green sash in Hwa rang do. There seems to be a lot of misinformation on this branch of Korean martial art, so I thought I'd relate my own experiences.
    First let me clear up the idea that there is no sparring involved in the training. Since almost the first day, we have trained in stand up sparring. It involves head strikes with hands and feet as well as body shots above the belt. Kicks below the belt are discurraged because of the potential for joint injury, although blocking kicks are allowed. Grabs, sweeps, and throws are a valid part of sparring, and actively encouraged as a practicle application of joint lock techniques. If the fight goes to the ground the sparring is stopped and returned to stand-up position. The reason for this is that ground sparring is done as a seperate training function (Gotogi).
    My experience may be somewhat different because there are just not very many of us in FL, but my instructors actively encourage me to spar with people from other martial arts. There is a lot of crossover in Tang soo do and Taekwondo as you might expect; but there is also a lot of similarity to Shotokan and Kung Fu (at least mantis and shaolin styles) Rather than taking this as proof that all styles steal from each other, I have always thought it a simple permutation of the fact that the human body can only move in so many directions. This was driven home recently when I was watching something on Loa ( traditional hawian martial art) and recognized several of the exact joint locks, and joint lock combinations I have learned. My first thought was not Aha! the hawians were obviously trained by koreans! Instead I thought how ridiculous it is to lay claim to the idea that if I put the wrist and elbow at 90 degrees and turn them the opposite way they are meant to go, pain and injury ensue. I'm sure someone had discovered that before there were words to describe it.
    My experience with sparring with people from different martial schools has been fairly positive. I find myself the equal of anyone who has been training for the same amount of time, and able to learn new nuances from those who have been sparring for considerably longer. It is hard for me to believe that a " McDojo" as I've seen hwa rang do refered to here would be capable of imparting that kind of flexability and skill in the ring.
    I also have had the chance to use gotugi grappling with several BJJ practitioners. I have to say that there is very little difference in the practicle application other than the fact that we usually start from a standing position, which puts much greater emphasis on the initial rush and take down. BJJ does not seem to emphasize strikes or kicks. Subsequently I help train my BJJ sparring partners in stand up strikes, and they help me refine my ground game.
    Overall I've had nothing but a positive learning experience from Tae soo do/ Hwa rang do. I haven't experienced any of the "cultish behavior" that I've seen referenced in prvios threads. Certainly the other practitionars of my art are proud of the work they have done to achieve their present level of skill, and feel that the highest ranking member of the art (Dr Joo Bang Lee) is a knowlegable and honorable man. I would be suprised if this were not true of any school of martial arts; otherwise why would an individual stay and train there.
    Anyway, that is in brief a synopsis of my experience in TSD/HWD. If there are any questions I can help answer ( as I didn't see any posts from others who have actually trained in HWD for any length of time) please feel free to forward them on.
    Damn, when I saw this thread title I was hoping that there was a new deadly Objectivist fighting style created by a secret society of Korean Libertarians who REALLY liked The Fountainhead. All joking aside, I am curious as to why Hwa Rang Do has this undergraduate Tae Soo Do type program. Why not just do five years of Hwa Rang Do? Secondly, why try to make the Silla dynasty connection with the Hwarang name? There doesn't seem to be much evidence for this art coming from the Hwarang and I'm curious if you accept such claims as true. What about claims of Sulsa?
  3. The_Beak is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2011 11:12am


     Style: Youtube-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can you post Video of your sparring?

    Are the Hwa Rangers allowed to participate in grappling Comps?

    I am glad to hear you had never seen or experienced any cult-ish behavior but I had heard Hwa Rangers were forbidden from posting on the internet about HRD/TSD, Also some other stupid, paranoid rules(your BB gets revoked if you leave the org.).

    Has this changed?

    The reason Gotogi and BJJ seen similar is because Gotogi is BJJ it was added to the curriculum very recently. There was some cross training, a little white washing and presto Gotogi.



    Looks like BJJ and some wrist locks. Which BTW would make for a very interesting style of grappling and in my opinion should be explored futher.

    Example: when i roll with BJJ guys and land a wrist lock it's either "No, dude that's illegal" or "What the hell was that?" normally followed by me getting pwed the next go.

    Do you guys train with aliveness as defined by Matt Thorton?

    Did you need to google those names just now??

    Quote:[Grabs, throws and sweeps are a valid part of sparring]
    It seems to me HRD/TSD is taking Bullshido's advice while still pretending to have invented everything 2000 years ago. Which is still a step in the right direction IMO.



    ^^^^^ What GSP said.
    Last edited by The_Beak; 4/26/2011 11:19am at .
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/26/2011 11:48am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Beak View Post
    The reason Gotogi and BJJ seen similar is because Gotogi is BJJ it was added to the curriculum very recently. There was some cross training, a little white washing and presto Gotogi.
    Which makes it Mcdojo as Tae Soo Do was a "new" addition to HWD.


    Looks like BJJ and some wrist locks. Which BTW would make for a very interesting style of grappling and in my opinion should be explored futher.
    It exists and people do that. We have entire threads discussing the validity of writs lock and BJJ.


    [Grabs, throws and sweeps are a valid part of sparring]
    It seems to me HRD/TSD is taking Bullshido's advice while still pretending to have invented everything 2000 years ago. Which is still a step in the right direction IMO.
    No, they haven't taken Bullshido's advice at all.

    Nope, that is what they have been doing for years. Sparring has always been part of the curriculum crosstraining is frowned upon hence gotogi instead of BJJ. This is different than meeting with other martial artists.



    ^^^^^ What GSP said.[/QUOTE]
  5. The_Beak is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2011 11:58am


     Style: Youtube-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Right. Sorry about that Bossman. I was trying to be nice enough to him so he would post a reply.
  6. Fenrirsget is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2011 9:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually I am a rational objectivist, and a big fan of Ayn Rand. It seems this is not uncommon in martial arts. As to why I personally trained through Tae soo do and then began practicing Hwa rang do, it is because I did not previously hold any high ranking belt in another martial art. Since it didn't pertain to me I didn't investigate what level of belt in a previous martial art you needed to begin training in Hwa rang do directly, but I believe if you hold a black belt in some other art you may begin directly into Hwa rang do.
    In terms of why the Tae soo do criteria was developed it is my understanding that the amount of material between belt ranks ( and subsequently the longer time it takes to advance) were not well recieved by the general public. Given the general need for instant gratification of most of the American public, and the focus on short term goal aquisition as a mark of achievement by the same said public, I understand how Hwa rang do would fair poorly in the economic competitive market. I personally could care less about the belt ranking system in any martial art. I intend to continue trainig and improving. The mark of my progress is if I continue to gain new skill sets, while advancing in the profeciency of those I've already learned. I frequently find my self returning to older material after learning new martial concepts because in retrospect I now understand them better, and am able to make them more efficient. In essence it doesn't really matter what tag is applied to the skills being learned ( Tae soo do or Hwa rang do) as they are a continuation of improvement on an endless spectrum.
    Does having the divided curriculum make it more economically viable. Well, yes I think it does given the above mentioned mentality of most people in the USA when they begin to practice martial arts. A simple truth is that if you don't have students to pass on knowledge to, then the art dies. If your curriculum is such that 98% of the people who show an intrest feel disheartened because they don't advance fast enough ( or percieve that to be true because of the long intervals between belts/ sashes being awarded) then it is impossible to maintain your art as a living, growing reality. So if you are faced with the eventual loss of knowledge, or changing the percieved curriculum to draw a greater student base and hopefully pass on what you feel is something of genuine worth to future generations, doesn't it make sense to make changes? Isn't one of the basic precepts of martial arts adaptive change?
    In answer to why conjure the ghost of the ancient hwarang in naming the art there are two valid reasons that I see. First I would refer you to a series of three videos in which Dr Joo Bang Lee discusses his personal training and life history in Korea. . To understand the period you need to realize that Korea was just emerging from decades of crushing abusive rule by Japan. Their culture had been raped ( literally in terms of their young daughters) and devalued. Many young Koreans had grown up ashamed of their own heritage. In trying to restore pride and a sense of Nationalism to the Korean people Dr Lee ( who in the above video states that he was clearly creating a new art from the teachings of Suam Dosa as well as his other instructers) chose to utilize a common thread of pride ( one of the few remaining) to the Korean people; The ancient Hwarang. In a nation re-emerging from oppression and striving to re-invent itself, it seems that this was an inspired thing to do. It provided his students ( and it was hoped Koreans in general) with a readily available foundation on which they could begin to build. His choice in choosing to use the name Hwa rang do in that environment seems perfectly reasonable and justifiable, and as such valid.
    The second reason I would site is the unique ( at least to my knowledge) feature in Hwa rang do of teaching traditional eastern healing as part of the core curriculum. This is one of the things that attracted me to it in the frist place. I have worked in cardiac surgery for over 20 years now, and I can state unequivically that intimate knowledge of human anatomy and physiology is a tremendous aide in understanding the underlying physics of destruction that compose martial arts. The balance of learning healing ( bone setting, accupressure, accupuncture, and traditional eastern herbal medicine) as well as the destructive arts is completely in keeping with the values of the ancient Hwarang. The goal is to develop an active, logical, rational mind capable of descerning when and if to apply violence, not a mindless thug bent only on creating havoc. Since the curriculum of modern Hwa rang do attempts to teach the balanced skills of destruction and healing, I again feel it is valid to incorporate the Hwarang into the name of the art.
    As far as the iron-clad, irrefutable evidence that all or part of Hwa rang do dates back undiluted for greater than a thousand years, I don't think that is either provable or disproveable. In the history of Korea can you say with relative certainty that the Kingdom of Silla existed and in it were a group of nobles who were tutered in the military, mathmatic, philosophic, and governing arts? ..well yes I think that can be agreed on. There is good historic evidence that they were later betrayed and outlawed by their own (weak willed) monarch because he feared they were a threat to his centralized power. The remnants retreated to the hinterlands to avoid further persecution. It certainly would not be a unique situation that those displaced nobles would then pass on their knowledge ( martial, philosophic, religous, medicinal) to their progeny. For a more recent example just look at the history of Capoeira being practiced in secret, or the Scottish Highland games being developed as a covert means of martial training.
    Do I think at least some of Um Yang Kwon ( the portion of Hwa rang do taught by Suam Dosa to Dr. Lee) survived un-adulterated to the present? I certainly believe it is possible since that which is ineffective or without merit would have been discarded over the course of centuries.
    I sense the underlying question from you however is do I think Hwa rang do intentionally attempts to defraud the public. Clearly I don't or I wouldn't be wasting my time training in it. I do think there is a lot of misinformation that exists about it however. This in part is secondary to people who have trained in Hwa rang do for a short time, and had an imperfect or only partial understanding of it's history. They then go on to propigate that misunderstood history as if it were undeniable truth, leading only to further obfiscation of the original claims by the arts founder. So does Hwa rang do have it's roots in the ancient knowledge of the hwarang..yes. Just as modern boxing has it's roots in grecco-roman wrestling. The two have many concepts and movements in common, but inevitably there is some divergence. It doesn't make it any less true that it was its origin however.
    As for the Sulsa I'm not sure what specific claims your refering to. Do I believe that in Silla there was an elite force trained in intelligence and counter-intelligence? Of course I do. No significant civilization in the history of the world has not had it's own espionage/ assasination group ( i.e. CIA, navy Seals, army special forces, etc.) Is any of their specialized training passed undiluted through the centuries directly into Hwa rang do? I suspect some things may have as useful information usually is passed on. My own training has not yet begun to encompass that however.
    Hope this helps, and I look forward to your reply ( always nice to now there are other rational objectivists in the world)
  7. Fenrirsget is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2011 10:15pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for the recent addition of Gotogi to Hwa rang do I can only relate that it has been a part of the curriculum for the five years I've been involved in it. I do know that wrestling has been an integral part of korean society since about 400B.C.; it's modern permutation is Ssireum. This video has several take downs that are familiar from gotogi.

    Since Bjj has it's origins in judo/hapkido/ traditional japanese jujitsu I'm not surprised that there are many similarities. As to when gotogi was added to the main curriculum I can't say with assurity, but I will endeavor to find out.
    As to rules about posting on the internet the only one I'm aware of is not posting instructional videos to the general public. I think there is a definate feeling within the Hwa rang do orginization that if a constant vigelence is not kept, then this would open the door for spin off groups to claim their origin in the present art of hwa rang do who have not been trained under Dr. Lee or Tae Joon Lee. This would inevitably lead to a dilution of the techniques, and a loss of efficacy. Look at the huge variations( many ineffective or outright dangerous to try and use in any real situation) that have cropped up under the names * Tae kwando and *Akido when there is uncontroled expansion. Someone trains for a few years then breaks off to start a school under the general title with their variant tacked on( Bob's super kickass school of interstellar Qigong Akido) that is completely worthless. In order to prevent this Hwa rang do has gone to extremes to protect it's reputation. So while I can post sparring video, I can't post as trademarked hwa rang do video. I also can't participate as a Hwa rang do practitioner in officially sanctioned open bouts, but I can spar and grapple with training partners from whatever art I wish, and I frequently do. The more opponents I face, the better martial artisit I become. The more variants I face, the more adaptive I become. My instructer and main training patrner for the last few years is the gentleman in the video below who knocks out his opponent with the chop kick.

    And yes if you leave HRD to train in another art, you are stricken from their official roster. Is this overkill in erring on the side of caution to protect their reputation and curb unsactioned expansion; possibly, but those are their terms. They are clear about it when you join, and if you have issue with it you can always choose another art. My personal feeling is that revoking your official standing is immaterial. The knowledge and skill you gain with sweat, pain and blood doesn't evaporate because your name doesn't appear on a roster; only your ability to claim that pedigree if your trying to start your own school.
    As to the Aliveness question, yes I needed the help of google to understand who and what you were refering to. And yes, we do train with aliveness. Like any session in the BJJ schools I've been in your start with a training partner being passive for a particular technique so you can learn angles and movement. Then you progress to them resisting your attempt to place them in the choke, joint lock, throw, etc. Finally you progress to both of you actively trying to correctly chain techniques together against each other while looking for the openings your opponent isn't cognizent of. Is there another way to train?
    As for the on-going misinterpretation of the modern format of Hwa rang do being 2000 years old please see my previous post. Claiming to have origins in a thing does not imply that all knowledge has passed down unchanged for thousands of years. The Bible has been around for about the same time frame and look at the varity of forms it has taken. Do basic tennents remain essentially unchanged within it?
    Thank s for the inerest, and I'll see if I can pin down a date as to when gotogi was added to the curriculum.
  8. Fenrirsget is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2011 10:45pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hwa Rang Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for the justification of the development of Tae soo do, please see the first post of the evening.
    As to the statement that it is a "Mcdojo", if I understand the use of the term correctly, I have to strongly disagree. Mcdojo implies a worthless, useless, or ineffective body of martial knowledge. The curriculum itself teaches both linear and circular foot, hand elbow, and knee strikes. Granted more emphasis is placed on the hard style rather than the soft styles ( a more flowing balanced approach is taught in Hwa rang do), but only because the effective use of circular soft styles takes longer to learn. The basics for developing the more advanced style are all there. Grappling basics are introduced and practiced, as are weapons and weapon sparring. The greatest difference is the relative paucity of joint lock variants, but what you do learn are servicable and effective.
    In terms of sparring people from other arts who had been training approximately for the same amount of time, I never found the effectiveness lacking. Frequently I was suprised at their lack of ability to move at 45 degree angles in setting up attacks or defenses. That is something which was stressed from the start in Tae soo do, not simply moving foreward and back in a direct linear fashion.
    So if by "Mcdojo" you mean an ineffective or pointless endeavor, you couldn't be more wrong.
  9. Epeeist is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2011 11:35pm


     Style: Kyokushin/Capoeira

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    Actually I am a rational objectivist, and a big fan of Ayn Rand. It seems this is not uncommon in martial arts. As to why I personally trained through Tae soo do and then began practicing Hwa rang do, it is because I did not previously hold any high ranking belt in another martial art. Since it didn't pertain to me I didn't investigate what level of belt in a previous martial art you needed to begin training in Hwa rang do directly, but I believe if you hold a black belt in some other art you may begin directly into Hwa rang do.
    In terms of why the Tae soo do criteria was developed it is my understanding that the amount of material between belt ranks ( and subsequently the longer time it takes to advance) were not well recieved by the general public. Given the general need for instant gratification of most of the American public, and the focus on short term goal aquisition as a mark of achievement by the same said public, I understand how Hwa rang do would fair poorly in the economic competitive market. I personally could care less about the belt ranking system in any martial art. I intend to continue trainig and improving. The mark of my progress is if I continue to gain new skill sets, while advancing in the profeciency of those I've already learned. I frequently find my self returning to older material after learning new martial concepts because in retrospect I now understand them better, and am able to make them more efficient. In essence it doesn't really matter what tag is applied to the skills being learned ( Tae soo do or Hwa rang do) as they are a continuation of improvement on an endless spectrum.
    Does having the divided curriculum make it more economically viable. Well, yes I think it does given the above mentioned mentality of most people in the USA when they begin to practice martial arts. A simple truth is that if you don't have students to pass on knowledge to, then the art dies. If your curriculum is such that 98% of the people who show an intrest feel disheartened because they don't advance fast enough ( or percieve that to be true because of the long intervals between belts/ sashes being awarded) then it is impossible to maintain your art as a living, growing reality. So if you are faced with the eventual loss of knowledge, or changing the percieved curriculum to draw a greater student base and hopefully pass on what you feel is something of genuine worth to future generations, doesn't it make sense to make changes? Isn't one of the basic precepts of martial arts adaptive change?
    In answer to why conjure the ghost of the ancient hwarang in naming the art there are two valid reasons that I see. First I would refer you to a series of three videos in which Dr Joo Bang Lee discusses his personal training and life history in Korea. . To understand the period you need to realize that Korea was just emerging from decades of crushing abusive rule by Japan. Their culture had been raped ( literally in terms of their young daughters) and devalued. Many young Koreans had grown up ashamed of their own heritage. In trying to restore pride and a sense of Nationalism to the Korean people Dr Lee ( who in the above video states that he was clearly creating a new art from the teachings of Suam Dosa as well as his other instructers) chose to utilize a common thread of pride ( one of the few remaining) to the Korean people; The ancient Hwarang. In a nation re-emerging from oppression and striving to re-invent itself, it seems that this was an inspired thing to do. It provided his students ( and it was hoped Koreans in general) with a readily available foundation on which they could begin to build. His choice in choosing to use the name Hwa rang do in that environment seems perfectly reasonable and justifiable, and as such valid.
    The second reason I would site is the unique ( at least to my knowledge) feature in Hwa rang do of teaching traditional eastern healing as part of the core curriculum. This is one of the things that attracted me to it in the frist place. I have worked in cardiac surgery for over 20 years now, and I can state unequivically that intimate knowledge of human anatomy and physiology is a tremendous aide in understanding the underlying physics of destruction that compose martial arts. The balance of learning healing ( bone setting, accupressure, accupuncture, and traditional eastern herbal medicine) as well as the destructive arts is completely in keeping with the values of the ancient Hwarang. The goal is to develop an active, logical, rational mind capable of descerning when and if to apply violence, not a mindless thug bent only on creating havoc. Since the curriculum of modern Hwa rang do attempts to teach the balanced skills of destruction and healing, I again feel it is valid to incorporate the Hwarang into the name of the art.
    As far as the iron-clad, irrefutable evidence that all or part of Hwa rang do dates back undiluted for greater than a thousand years, I don't think that is either provable or disproveable. In the history of Korea can you say with relative certainty that the Kingdom of Silla existed and in it were a group of nobles who were tutered in the military, mathmatic, philosophic, and governing arts? ..well yes I think that can be agreed on. There is good historic evidence that they were later betrayed and outlawed by their own (weak willed) monarch because he feared they were a threat to his centralized power. The remnants retreated to the hinterlands to avoid further persecution. It certainly would not be a unique situation that those displaced nobles would then pass on their knowledge ( martial, philosophic, religous, medicinal) to their progeny. For a more recent example just look at the history of Capoeira being practiced in secret, or the Scottish Highland games being developed as a covert means of martial training.
    Do I think at least some of Um Yang Kwon ( the portion of Hwa rang do taught by Suam Dosa to Dr. Lee) survived un-adulterated to the present? I certainly believe it is possible since that which is ineffective or without merit would have been discarded over the course of centuries.
    I sense the underlying question from you however is do I think Hwa rang do intentionally attempts to defraud the public. Clearly I don't or I wouldn't be wasting my time training in it. I do think there is a lot of misinformation that exists about it however. This in part is secondary to people who have trained in Hwa rang do for a short time, and had an imperfect or only partial understanding of it's history. They then go on to propigate that misunderstood history as if it were undeniable truth, leading only to further obfiscation of the original claims by the arts founder. So does Hwa rang do have it's roots in the ancient knowledge of the hwarang..yes. Just as modern boxing has it's roots in grecco-roman wrestling. The two have many concepts and movements in common, but inevitably there is some divergence. It doesn't make it any less true that it was its origin however.
    As for the Sulsa I'm not sure what specific claims your refering to. Do I believe that in Silla there was an elite force trained in intelligence and counter-intelligence? Of course I do. No significant civilization in the history of the world has not had it's own espionage/ assasination group ( i.e. CIA, navy Seals, army special forces, etc.) Is any of their specialized training passed undiluted through the centuries directly into Hwa rang do? I suspect some things may have as useful information usually is passed on. My own training has not yet begun to encompass that however.
    Hope this helps, and I look forward to your reply ( always nice to now there are other rational objectivists in the world)
    I appreciate your candor and openness. I am not an objectivist, I am a Kantian when it comes to moral philosophy and a metaphysical Thomist, though I frequently have debates with my objectivist friends, I did find the typo amusing enough to comment. You will find that there is a growing objectivist movement on college campuses (not in my department but in departments where libertarians are on the rise). Plus you guys have a movie now.

    I find your response more eloquent than the average HWD practitioner that comes on here but I am no expert on Korean history beyond what I had to memorize for ITF patterns (i.e. not even remotely an iota of an expert) and I hope a someone will come along in this thread who knows more about Korea than probably anyone in this forum to address this better than I can.

    I guess I am most critical of the incredibly tight centralized control of the organization despite claims of wanting to prevent dilution. When I quit TKD, my green belt was never taken away. Virtually no martial art works like that. Appealing to consequences of possible dilution I think is largely unfounded. Granted, you would see Hwa Rang Do knock-offs, but you can look at BJJ as an example. BJJ doesn't have tight centralized control but has a strong lineage system and is a tight enough group that people verify one another, I've seen it happen all the time on this site.

    As for the Sulsa, I find few or no references to this organization outside of HWD. Countries and peoples have always had spies (sometimes called the world's second oldest profession), but the notion of organizations or agencies for this is relatively new, much less giving each spy a standardized "curriculum".

    Once again, I thank you for your in-depth and candorous reply.
    Last edited by Epeeist; 4/26/2011 11:48pm at .
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2011 6:24am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrirsget View Post
    As for the justification of the development of Tae soo do, please see the first post of the evening.
    As to the statement that it is a "Mcdojo", if I understand the use of the term correctly, I have to strongly disagree. Mcdojo implies a worthless, useless, or ineffective body of martial knowledge.
    Nope. Here is a link:
    http://www.bullshido.org/McDojo
    Notice, in this definition, nowhere is the word "ineffective" used.


    Now, Tae Soo Do is basically a new addition to an already existing curriculum. It is an introduction art, using the same techniques, that you pay for to before you start the main art Hwa Rang Do. So, you basically pay for the art twice. The art SUDDENLY finds a connection to grappling which it never had before. In other words they add the current "flavor of the month" to cash in on the current "hot Martial Art." The school falls under the umbrella " we teach everything to everyon. Hence the comments referring to McDonalds because, the franchise offers EVERYTHING under the sun. HWD now teaches grappling, striking, an extra art, and has long contracts.



    No, BJJ is not made up from Hapkido. It comes from Judo which came from things in jujutsu. Hapkido is a Korean creation derived from Japanese cultural influences during the terrible time of occupation.

    And yes if you leave HRD to train in another art, you are stricken from their official roster. Is this overkill in erring on the side of caution to protect their reputation and curb unsactioned expansion; possibly, but those are their terms. They are clear about it when you join, and if you have issue with it you can always choose another art.
    No cross-training is also a sign of a McDojo. No, it has nothing to do with reputation or expansion.


    My personal feeling is that revoking your official standing is immaterial.
    Doesn't matter. This actually negates a statement in your OP.

    The knowledge and skill you gain with sweat, pain and blood doesn't evaporate because your name doesn't appear on a roster; only your ability to claim that pedigree if your trying to start your own school.
    Hard training and sweat does not mean a school is not a Mcdojo. They do not refund your money and impose this rule with bias.


    So if by "Mcdojo" you mean an ineffective or pointless endeavor, you couldn't be more wrong.
    Okay, for this to continue, you need to make sure you understand definitions and words that you are going to use.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 4/27/2011 6:28am at .
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