232786 Bullies, 3485 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 21 to 30 of 35
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 123 4 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. corto-maltese is offline

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    7

    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 7:10am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your whole Bartitsu "theory" is trolling, under the fake lineage I meant the fake origin of your "theory" based, as I noticed in my previous messages, only on your speculations, incorrect personal suggestions or wishes, not on the real historical facts. This "theory" has nothing to do with an excellent research of (1990s period) British Jiu-jitsu historians about Bartitsu. For example, you claim that "the influence of Barton-Wright’s philosophy of cross-training informed the practices of other martial artists - including Vigny and Tani". This is only your personal wish - Vigny and Tani never continued to teach Bartitsu, that died out in 1902, or were influenced by B-W philosophy etc.
    Last edited by corto-maltese; 5/13/2011 7:12am at . Reason: tipo
  2. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,777

    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 9:21am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by corto-maltese View Post
    Your whole Bartitsu "theory" is trolling, under the fake lineage I meant the fake origin of your "theory" based, as I noticed in my previous messages, only on your speculations, incorrect personal suggestions or wishes, not on the real historical facts. This "theory" has nothing to do with an excellent research of (1990s period) British Jiu-jitsu historians about Bartitsu.
    Ah, I see; so by "lineage", you didn't mean a tradition handed down from teacher to student. Good to know, because it would be very easy to demonstrate that there is no "fake lineage" in that sense. You might want to be more careful about how you choose your words, so as not to accidentally give a false impression.

    As I said earlier, modern Bartitsu incorporates both the verbatim reconstruction of Barton-Wright's circa 1900 material and also numerous "neo-Bartitsu" approaches, which attempt to extend the cross-training experiments he left as a work in progress back in 1902, especially via the detailed resources left by his colleagues and students. The obvious fact that neo-Bartitsu is a modern interpretive method is taken for granted; that's why we call it "neo-Bartitsu".

    In terms of research, we make very thorough use of the late Richard Bowen's 1990s work. As you may recall, a few years ago his brother kindly sent us Richard's detailed unpublished notes on Barton-Wright, Tani, Miyake et al. We are very grateful for those pioneering efforts, and those of Graham Noble (also interviewed in the documentary), et al.

    For example, you claim that "the influence of Barton-Wright’s philosophy of cross-training informed the practices of other martial artists - including Vigny and Tani". This is only your personal wish - Vigny and Tani never continued to teach Bartitsu, that died out in 1902, or were influenced by B-W philosophy etc.
    I did not claim that - you're quoting the original post in this thread, the documentary review, which was not mine. If you're going to accuse people of being liars, you should really be more careful to get your facts straight.

    You're right regarding Tani, insofar as there is no evidence that he was ever interested in cross-training between styles (Barton-Wright said that he had tried to teach Tani boxing, but that Tani "had no aptitude for the sport"). After the Bartitsu Club closed, Vigny, though, definitely did continue to combine French and Japanese martial arts; we have references to him demonstrating basic jujitsu techniques himself, and he also hired Sadakazu Uyenishi to teach jujitsu classes at his new school. Given that the Bartitsu Club was the first known place in the world where jujitsu and European styles had been taught alongside, I agree with the reviewer's comment that "the influence of Barton-Wright's philosophy of cross-training informed" what Vigny was doing in the post-Bartitsu Club period. You may note that this is not the same thing as saying that Vigny continued to teach Bartitsu, which, as we all agree, effectively died out after 1902.

    Incidentally, I made these points the last time we had this discussion ...
  3. corto-maltese is offline

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    7

    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 2:44pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I did not claim that - you're quoting the original post in this thread, the documentary review, which was not mine. If you're going to accuse people of being liars, you should really be more careful to get your facts straight.
    I suppose that the original post in this thread was published by an official member of "Bartitsu society" and was authorised by yourself. And also you didn´t correct this in your previous messages - until my notice was posted. You should be more careful to get your facts straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    After the Bartitsu Club closed, Vigny, though, definitely did continue to combine French and Japanese martial arts; we have references to him demonstrating basic jujitsu techniques himself, and he also hired Sadakazu Uyenishi to teach jujitsu classes at his new school. Given that the Bartitsu Club was the first known place in the world where jujitsu and European styles had been taught alongside, I agree with the reviewer's comment that "the influence of Barton-Wright's philosophy of cross-training informed" what Vigny was doing in the post-Bartitsu Club period. You may note that this is not the same thing as saying that Vigny continued to teach Bartitsu, which, as we all agree, effectively died out after 1902.

    "Vigny´s combined art of defense" wasn´t influenced by "Barton-Wright's philosophy of cross-training". As I know Vigny was student of Joseph Charlemont, before he moved from France to Geneve and then to London. At Charlemont´s salle (in Paris) savate, boxing, lutte, canne cross-training was daily practised and this influenced Vigny and his combined method, not Barton-Wright. In France the most part of Jiu-jitsu was already practised in the form of "lutte libre" - before Bartitsu club was opened in 1899.
  4. GIburner is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    88

    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 2:48pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bartitsu- The martial art of Bart Simpson
  5. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,777

    Posted On:
    5/13/2011 3:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by corto-maltese View Post
    I suppose that the original post in this thread was published by an official member of "Bartitsu society" and was authorised by yourself. And also you didn´t correct this in your previous messages - until my notice was posted. You should be more careful to get your facts straight.
    Yes, the OP review is by a member of the Bartitsu Society. As you'll recall, the Bartitsu Society is an informal group - anyone can join by subscribing to the Bartitsu Forum email list. No, I did not "authorise" the review, nor any of the other reviews that have appeared to date, nor will I "authorise" any that appear in the future. Once again, you're welcome to believe whatever you want.

    I didn't correct the error regarding Tani because I didn't feel that it was worth mentioning. The review contains several other, similarly minor errors - a typo in spelling Moriarty's name, reference to Barton-Wright teaching self defense techniques using hats and bicycles, etc. I didn't bother correcting them either, because they are exactly the sort of inconsequential, trivial mistakes that one would expect from an interested party writing an informal review of a 55 minute documentary. This was not an academic thesis.

    "Vigny´s combined art of defense" wasn´t influenced by "Barton-Wright's philosophy of cross-training". As I know Vigny was student of Joseph Charlemont, before he moved from France to Geneve and then to London. At Charlemont´s salle (in Paris) savate, boxing, lutte, canne cross-training was daily practised and this influenced Vigny and his combined method, not Barton-Wright. In France the most part of Jiu-jitsu was already practised in the form of "lutte libre" - before Bartitsu club was opened in 1899.
    Yes, I know that cross-training between European styles was already a part of Vigny's experience. My comments, and (I imagine) the original reviewer's as well, were specific to the practice of cross-training between European and Japanese self defense arts, which was arguably Barton-Wright's major innovation, and which was then taken up at Vigny's academy.
  6. corto-maltese is offline

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    7

    Posted On:
    5/15/2011 7:21am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pierre Vigny was never influenced by Barton-Wright, his philosophy or his "innovations". Vigny was a chief intsructor at Bartitsu club only a short time (cca 1 year), then he opened his fencing academy in London, where he instructed own combined self-defense method. He was Frenchman and as a Frenchman (of that time) he would never accept or follow the philosophy or "innovations" of an Englishman (or vice-versa). He has followed the cross-training and eclectic philosophy of another Frenchman, his professor Joseph Charlemont. No single French martial artist of 1900s has followed Bartitsu or B-W philosophy.

    Bartitsu club closed the door in 1902, Bartitsu died out. If somebody wants to reconstruct it after 100 years, OK, but it must be based on historical facts, not on speculations and personal wishes. Finito, the game is over.
    Last edited by corto-maltese; 5/15/2011 7:27am at .
  7. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,777

    Posted On:
    5/15/2011 11:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by corto-maltese View Post
    Pierre Vigny was never influenced by Barton-Wright, his philosophy or his "innovations". Vigny was a chief intsructor at Bartitsu club only a short time (cca 1 year), then he opened his fencing academy in London, where he instructed own combined self-defense method. He was Frenchman and as a Frenchman (of that time) he would never accept or follow the philosophy or "innovations" of an Englishman (or vice-versa). He has followed the cross-training and eclectic philosophy of another Frenchman, his professor Joseph Charlemont. No single French martial artist of 1900s has followed Bartitsu or B-W philosophy.
    Evidently, you mean apart from the fact that Vigny and then Jean Joseph Renaud included jujitsu in their own combined self defense methods. Beyond that, of course, we can only guess about whether they were influenced by his ideas; there is no conclusive evidence either way, and none of us were there.

    As I've already said in this and the previous times we've had this discussion, no-one (apart from that Hapkido couple on the West Coast) is claiming that Bartitsu itself was perpetuated beyond 1902. Likewise, it is indisputable that Barton-Wright's innovation of cross training between Japanese and European self defense styles was then followed by others. It should be obvious that this doesn't mean that Barton-Wright was "better" than Vigny et al - he was simply the guy in the right place at the right time.

    Bartitsu club closed the door in 1902, Bartitsu died out. If somebody wants to reconstruct it after 100 years, OK, but it must be based on historical facts, not on speculations and personal wishes. Finito, the game is over.
    Funny thing, I'd thought the game was over a long time ago, but here we are again ...

    Given that I've already explained my perspective on these subjects multiple times and in great detail, and that you keep coming back and repeating the same arguments, I'm forced into one of two conclusions. Either you are so narrowly invested in your own point of view that you're literally unable to see or tolerate anyone else's, or you have in fact understood what I've said in the past and are simply trolling now. Whatever - I'll keep playing if you want.

    Anyway, for the record, the Bartitsu Society continues to go from modest success to modest success, with no grand plans to become the next big thing. Some of us focus on self defense and most of us are content to continue with research, historical preservation and recreational training. We have an article coming out in "Classical Fighting Arts" magazine that will focus on the aims and process of the modern revival - it might possibly be of interest to you.
  8. corto-maltese is offline

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    7

    Posted On:
    5/16/2011 12:59pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Evidently, you mean apart from the fact that Vigny and then Jean Joseph Renaud included jujitsu in their own combined self defense methods. Beyond that, of course, we can only guess about whether they were influenced by his ideas; there is no conclusive evidence either way, and none of us were there.

    As I've already said in this and the previous times we've had this discussion, no-one (apart from that Hapkido couple on the West Coast) is claiming that Bartitsu itself was perpetuated beyond 1902. Likewise, it is indisputable that Barton-Wright's innovation of cross training between Japanese and European self defense styles was then followed by others. It should be obvious that this doesn't mean that Barton-Wright was "better" than Vigny et al - he was simply the guy in the right place at the right time.
    French martial artists of 1900s - Vigny, Jean Joseph Renaud and also Leclerc, Mainguet, Dubois, Maitrot Andre etc included Jiu-jitsu in their, already, existing cross-trainig after Bartitsu club closed the door in 1902, and there is no evidence of any kind of B-W influence on their cross-training methods. Vigny, Jean Joseph Renaud, Leclerc, Mainguet, Dubois, Maitrot, Andre, together with Barton-Wright, all were interesting personalities, innovators, the guys in the right place at the right time.
  9. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,777

    Posted On:
    5/16/2011 2:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that the implications of the word "influence" are key to whatever debate we're having. After the Bartitsu Club era - as Tani and Uyenishi (and then Miyake, Ono, et al) became further established, as foreign students (Regnier, Renaud) started training in London, etc. - many others, French and English alike, began to devise "combined" self defense methods drawing from Japanese and European styles. In this sense, Barton-Wright's influence via the Bartitsu Club was in having established an environment (the presence of jujitsu instructors) and a precedent (cross-training between jujitsu and boxing, etc.)

    The question of whether those others were intentionally following his example is unresolved, except in the case of Percy Longhurst, so at that level we can only speculate based on the available evidence. Regarding Vigny in particular, my own opinion is that since there is no evidence of him including jujitsu in his combined method prior to his involvement with Bartitsu, and significant evidence of him doing that afterward, it is fair to say that he was influenced by Barton-Wright's example in that regard. Obviously, that doesn't imply that Vigny was in any sense "less" than Barton-Wright - he was the younger man, but actually the more experienced self defense instructor and he was obviously an innovator in his own right. IMO it's a pity their collaboration didn't last longer, but then, that's one of the issues the modern Bartitsu Society is attempting to address.
  10. ralphg is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    75

    Posted On:
    8/01/2011 8:19am


     Style: JJ, CQB,FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    bartitsu

    members, i do not think that all of tony's research is bad. however, i do agree that tani and vigny were not bartitsu instructors--tani was a jiu jitsuka/judoka and vigny was a boxe franchase/la canne/la lutte expert----my problem with the current crop of bartitsuka today is that they do not have ranks in the art they are teaching. i have expressed this before with great concern on tony's bartitsu site. if you are teaching bartitsu , one should be ranked in judo/or a grappling based form of jiu jitsu, la canne, savate or boxe franchaise or a person that has high level boxing skills---i see none of the leadership of current bartitsu instructors have these skills---many a stage combat instructors, reconstructionists of western arts, tae kwon do blaclk belts, but few have the qualifications to teach the mixed methods of the arts they claim to teach---as a result you have people not quailfied in the base arts teaching beginners something they themselves do not know or fully understand--however if a man like roger lafond were teaching[rest in peace] now heres a gent with a base in all these systems-----rg
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 123 4 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.