How we can save Aikido: An honest opinion.

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

Colin, while the ukemi in Aikido is great, there's a fundamental difference with the ukemi in Judo which could get you hurt.

In Aikido tori will let go of uke once uke is "airborne" so that uke can roll out of the fall, which has created the habit of falling with a leg bend so that it's easier to roll.

In Judo tori won't let go of uke. Tori will keep control of the arm to guide uke to the mat and that's why uke "smacks" into one place and can't roll out. Out of safety a Judoka will fall with his both legs straightend.
The only Aikido style that I have seen use this same principle is Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido.

You do not want to fall Aikido fashion in a Judo throw (your knee bend in a 'smack' in one place throw) and since most Combat Sport fighters are trained in a style that uses these same principles (Judo, SAMBO, Wrestling, BJJ, etc...), there isn't very few demand for Aikido ukemi in MMA.

That doesn't mean that it is a waste of time, but like every technique the fighter should know in which circumstances to use a certain technique. If he gets thrown and 'tori' loses the grip an Aikido roll-out would be good to getting back immediatly on his feet, else Judo ukemi would be preferable.

If you want to 'save' Aikido and Hapkido, start a school where the minimum requierement is that students should have a Judo Shodan (or the equivalent in other grappling arts) before they can start to study Aikido.

[Colin]

In Aikido tori will let go of uke once uke is "airborne" so that uke can roll out of the fall, which has created the habit of falling with a leg bend so that it's easier to roll.

Cmon this isn't always true, and furthermore good breakfall training does NOT equal 'airborne'. Also, I do Judo, so what's your point?

[DCS]

Even if there are various kinds of safe landing in aikido, depending of the technique one is receiving

Zendo is mostly correct.

[Colin]

Even if there are various kinds of safe landing in aikido (depending of the technique one is receiving) Zendo is mostly correct.

Correct about what? That there is little value in breakfall training, or that the goals of said training are too ambitious?
Please imagine for a moment that this has nothing to do with Aikido, and the only breakfalls that are trained are the best kind of breakfall for such techniques as:

Double leg takedown
Hip throws
Shooting body lock

ie: Techniques that people actually use.

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

Cmon this isn't always true, and furthermore good breakfall training does NOT equal 'airborne'. Also, I do Judo, so what's your point?

I never said that breakfall training equals 'airborne', I said that with a lot of throws in Aikido once uke is in mid air, tori will let go and that this created the habit to continue rolling out of a throw.
Like you said, not with all the throws tori will let go, but in Judo tori will almost never let go, making the mechanic of rolling out of a throw impossible. So if uke makes a wrong judgement in his fall and thinks that he can roll out and bend his knee, but tori keeps a tight grip on his arms it is going to hurt on impact with the mat.
I speak also out of experience, started with Hapkido and went later on to Judo.

My point is (and this is MY point, mileage may vary) that a part of the ukemi of Aikido is not competable with the ukemi of Judo (especially not for newbies), but a superset for that rare occassion where you can use it in a safe way.

[Colin]

My point is (and this is MY point, mileage may vary) that a part of the ukemi of Aikido is not competable with the ukemi of Judo (especially not for newbies), but a superset for that rare occassion where you can use it in a safe way.

Which has zero relevance to my actual argument. Not the Argument in my first post, nor any argument in any subsequent post.

This is called the straw man fallacy. You are attempting to argue against a position that nobody is supporting or representing.

[Ignorami]

Our ukemi is not dissimilar to judo ukemi I think. It would be wise at an early stage I think to differentiate between ukemi and 'aikido rolls'.

Aikido rolls are a symptom of excessively choreographed practice. Even elaborate rolling ukemi feels different to this (IME), because of the distance, connection, and source of the driving energy behind it.

In addition to the ukemi as just safe falling, aikido ukemi also ought to include other absorbing an attack in a non-resisting but effective way. The best way I can think of explaining what I mean by this to non aikido people is to think of tomo-Nage (sp) in judo. Assuming I understand that throw correctly, it functions like a sacrifice throw?

Big rolls without connection to your opponent exist in aikido (and can be fun), but good, responsive, reactive and proactive ukemi should be fundamental.

EDIT: say "I think" again ************. I dare you. I double dare you.

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

Which has zero relevance to my actual argument. Not the Argument in my first post, nor any argument in any subsequent post.

This is called the straw man fallacy. You are attempting to argue against a position that nobody is supporting or representing.

????

Your first post is about reshaping Aikido ukemi into ukemido so that it can be used in MMA and SD.
When I point to you that there's habit in Aikido ukemi that can be exploited against the ukemidoka by the fighters who have trained in Judo throws I'm creating a strawman?

So your point is to create a breakfall art to move around an opponent without any use when you get thrown by that opponent?

[Yoj]

This is an interesting dvd to watch if you are interested in this malarky:



As I recall, one of the thing that Amdur sensei does is approach aikido ukemi as being already a failure in terms of their 'performance' aspect. Aikido is, possibly, the product of 2 skilled people trying to take each others center and throw them, from that perspective one would maintain posture as well as one could until it was clearly lost and then still follow the ukemi through in a manner that kept one the safest, considering the other person intends you damage.

In aikido normally, a point is reached where uke just gives up, changes his mind, and launches himself as prettily as he can, Amdur suggests this is a poor approach to training, and the correct response is to use it as an opportunity for damage limitation.

It was thinking about stuff like that that gave me a different view of what aikido could be, if myself and a partner were messing around, loosely, and neither one of you is the uke, then how do you know who is meant to do the big fall, we'd end up bouncing each others postures until eventually someone would get the upper hand, but even in probable defeat you still do what you can to save yourself, because it's not yet over, it would even turn into crappy groundwork at that point too. That gave me some faith in aikido, just not most aikidoka.

It's valid too, when you train to win compliantly with no aliveness, thats an obvious failing, but when your entire ukemi system assumes who is the loser, then what?

[Aikininjer]

Our ukemi is not dissimilar to judo ukemi I think. It would be wise at an early stage I think to differentiate between ukemi and 'aikido rolls'.

Aikido rolls are a symptom of excessively choreographed practice. Even elaborate rolling ukemi feels different to this (IME), because of the distance, connection, and source of the driving energy behind it.

In addition to the ukemi as just safe falling, aikido ukemi also ought to include other absorbing an attack in a non-resisting but effective way. The best way I can think of explaining what I mean by this to non aikido people is to think of tomo-Nage (sp) in judo. Assuming I understand that throw correctly, it functions like a sacrifice throw?

Big rolls without connection to your opponent exist in aikido (and can be fun), but good, responsive, reactive and proactive ukemi should be fundamental.

This is pretty much everything I would want to say, too.
To the OP: Why even bother mentioning Aikido in the title if you're not restricting the Ukemi to Aikido specific Ukemi?