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  1. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2011 4:23pm


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IIF/Alex

    Sorry I completely overlooked the point about 'roids allowing quicker recovery etc. I was wrongly thinking about increasing size only.

    I also had Bobby's comment about Masking Agents in my Mind. These are taken to clear the kidneys of illegal stimulants and not necessarily Steroids. Clenbuterol was the usual signal of misuse of drugs to evade Testers analysis.

    Personally I don't like cheats. I don't think Greg LeMond is too keen either and his natural talent also made him stand out. When Kimmage went public on the use of stimulants, he smeared all pro cyclists including the very best, who ally natural talent to the ability to suffer in their training. He articulates this in his book yet did not train as they did so it looked like a touch of sour grapes.

    Jacques Anquetil, the first 5 time Tour de France winner, said, that "One could not win the Tour on water alone". Crikey, there's an admission. What is also clear in the period is that there was a common understanding that stimulants were Accepted to survive the Tour by those who were not Stars. I didn't know what to think after reading Anquetil. However, those who abuse are fully prepared to shorten their life-span for notional "success". Anquetil died in his early 50s so perhaps that conclude the Faustian pact he may have made. One does read that journalists quote unnamed doctors as saying that those who misuse steroids tend to fall foul of unusual cancers in later years. Not sure how true that may be.

    I would not want anyone to lose their life in the Ring/Cage owing to Steriods nor other stimulants. What would happen if and when it does? Hand-wrining? A "call to tighten controls"? A shrug of the Shoulders? A dispute as to whether the cause of death was owing to: Steroids, Stimulants, Diuretics, Dangerous Technique?

    What drives competitors to take drugs? Commercial imperative. Sponsors. Fame. Ego. A belief that everyone else is doing it. A need to close the 1% to 5% that separates the "Greats" from the Contenders.

    Perhaps I should have just stuck to my first post. Thiago cheated, got caught, is a Cheater. Publicly.

    Hope it makes a bit more sense this time;-)
  2. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2011 4:40pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon View Post
    I would not want anyone to lose their life in the Ring/Cage owing to Steriods nor other stimulants. What would happen if and when it does? Hand-wrining? A "call to tighten controls"? A shrug of the Shoulders? A dispute as to whether the cause of death was owing to: Steroids, Stimulants, Diuretics, Dangerous Technique?
    what more can they do? the regulations are there, the tests are fairly regular. they do what they can.

    the thing is, there is a LOT more money in beating the system then there is in protecting it. Teams will do everything they can to win, and nowehre is this more on display than the olympics. national pride is huge. why do you think the chinese athletes at the beijing olympics were unknowns who had never competed outside china? cos they woulda been busted. when the govt of a country is in on the act, you run into certain problems, and no country is immune to this. watch some interviews with some of the old timer trainers for olympic athletes if you want a revelation on just how much **** goes down.

    Carl Lewis is a great example of the hypocrisy going on there, the dude was caught no less than 3 times pissing blue but the american govt threw its weight around and he got to play anyway. he wasnt the only one, the info is out there on hundreds of athletes who got a pass from the US govt after pissing blue. when the top spectacle of sports in the world is drowning in this kind of ****, where do you point the finger?

    to me, the last place it should be pointed is the athletes. **** that. they are the frankensteins monster in this whole thing- the public created what the olympics have come to represent. can you imagine an olympic games where no records got broken? that would be the end of it. people wouldnt care anymore. with the public being so fickle, and at the same time providing these people with their livelihood, no matter what an athlete does he/she has a high chance of getting fucked over by the very people who are supposed to be fans.

    im gonna stop now cos i could rant on about this all fucking day, but suffice to say, **** the haters. you want to see people do amazing things, to go faster, further and higher than before? dont be a bitch when your favourite athletes get busted cheating for YOUR demands.
  3. cufaol is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2011 5:19pm


     Style: Boxing/Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    to me, the last place it should be pointed is the athletes. **** that. they are the frankensteins monster in this whole thing- the public created what the olympics have come to represent. can you imagine an olympic games where no records got broken? that would be the end of it. people wouldnt care anymore. with the public being so fickle, and at the same time providing these people with their livelihood, no matter what an athlete does he/she has a high chance of getting fucked over by the very people who are supposed to be fans.

    im gonna stop now cos i could rant on about this all fucking day, but suffice to say, **** the haters. you want to see people do amazing things, to go faster, further and higher than before? dont be a bitch when your favourite athletes get busted cheating for YOUR demands.
    Granted. Athletes seem to have little choice if they want to be a champion. Maybe some type of regulated drug use is a possible solution after all.

    Nevertheless, I still don't like it when athletes are caught using some or other substance. Personally, I don't care about any stupid records. What I do care about, however, is seeing people duke it out in a sport. Whether this happens in the ring/cage or on a slope between skiers is not even relevant in my opinion. I don't care, all I want is to see some heart 'n soul. And admittedly, some blood too if possible.

    What troubles me in this entire fucking issue is that because the pro's use roids, you see it more and more among amateurs as well. That is pissing me off. What is the sport of MMA, or any other fighting sport for that matter, coming to if even amateurs are using 'roids? I fear that this will block a lot of regular joe's from trying to compete in the future because the 'fun' aspect will get lost. Furthermore, pro's usually have professional medical guidance, amateurs do not. This will invariably lead to completely unsafe and unmonitored usage of these substances.
  4. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2011 6:48pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    now that last point ill agree with you on. one of the reasons why i will probably never go pro (apart from the obvious of being too ****) is because i choose to have nothing to do with drugs and cheating. i like my balls how they are. the idea of other amateur competitors juicing irks me, because for something that really doesnt matter very much and is more for weekend warriors like myself, it is taking the fun out of it. basically, motherfuckers getting to srs up in here upsets me.
  5. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2011 8:21pm

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     Style: Ex-Tiger KF, ex-SanDa

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can only speak from experience, so I'll use the music again. Musicians and drugs, have a long and storied history. L Armstrong was a pothead, and maaaaaaaaaany of my favorite musicians took speed, or hallucinogens to 'add' to the effect, and gain a perceptual/energy edge.

    The drain of touring constantly, and the demand for high energy shows ruined many lives. Enablers were around, who would comp drugs, just to be around, for the fringe benefits (I wonder how many juicer trainers do this w/ big name fighters?)

    MMA is a young enough sport, that it will be some time, before we see a whole heap of early deaths, due to abuse, but it's coming. People will seek to get an edge, and the more that's at stake, the more likely they are to do something illicit, or dangerous.
  6. cufaol is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2011 1:49pm


     Style: Boxing/Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Or maybe the science behind these enhancing drugs will improve up to the point where the downside of using substances such as 'roids (ie tiny, useless nuts) is almost neutralized. This does not seem all that farfetched, given the history of constant improvement of a lot of meds, like painkillers for instance.
  7. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2011 4:23pm


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alex

    Thanks re Carl Lewis. I only read a very minor report in a UK broadcast and I was somewhat startled. Blue? No, didn't know that. I take your point about protection by US Track & Field but really, that's pretty effing amazing. Especially when he came second to Ben Johnson and was quoted as saying something along the lines of "Damn, he did it again [take steroids]".

    I have no problem in whether a record is broken or not. For me, it's the excitement of the Race or Event. The tactics, the effort etc. I know that there are cash incentives to break records etc and the 1988 Olympics even went so far as to make the 100m track harder than specified in the hope it would help produce a record. Well, it did - by a Steroid loaded Cheat.

    Keeping to the 1988 Olympics, I stayed up to watch the unfolding drama when a Gold medallist was 'found out'. On ITV the crew went to Linford Christie's room and he looked like he'd just woken up. He was face down, saying nice things about Johnson. This slightly puzzled me as my thought was - "Why are you excusing him? He denied you a podium place." A short while later, he was interviewed on the BBC and he was much the same. Now I realised that he was looking down and finding excuses BECAUSE HE HAD TAKEN SOMETHING. Yep, he looked GUILTY.

    Now, the anti-drugs platform was that the testers would find a teaspoon in an Olymplic sized pool. A few days later, the finger was clearly pointed at Christie and he said he had taken some Ginseng Tea. The UK doctor strongly disagreed and said that they had found traces of an illegal stimulant. So, he got away with it but I never believed him after that. Odd that his enhanced Physique did not allow for any Calf muscles. When he was eventually caught from 1,000 units of Nandrolone, it seemed to fit.

    Flo-Jo? No. Evelyn Ashford berated the Press saying that they all knew what was going on but refusing to print. The deepened voice, the electrolysis to remove upper lip hair. The early death...

    The Eastern Bloc? Where do we start? The perennial Students? In an amateur era. Marlies Gohr (sp?), Marita Koch? All those "Smarties". Jarmila Kratochvilova??? Good God.

    With the Chinese, even before you wrote your post I had that in Mind when I went to kip last night. Odd, the thoughts you get when you're off to Bed. Anyway, the Turtles Blood etc made me laugh and then they disappeared from view...Funny that.

    For Boby, I was right behind Lance. I thought it marvellous how he fought his way back (even though he uses Anger as fuel) BUT in his 6th or 7th Tour I changed my Mind when he did the Time Trial up L'Alpe D'Huez and he stamped on the pedals and then proceeded to crush the Field - and this in the 3rd Fucking Week. No. No. No. Something was wrong. Last year I read "Bad Blood" by Jeremy Whittle - and it all made sense.

    What do I - an admirer of sporting excellence - think now? I don't really know what to think so I'll retreat to first principles. If a competitor cheats, he or she is a Cheat; all else is Special Pleading. I can always turn off.
    Last edited by Eddie Hardon; 4/07/2011 4:25pm at . Reason: typos
  8. Pandion is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 12:11pm

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     Style: BJJ/Muay Thai/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon View Post
    I like the end quote, 'I take full responsibility for making the decision to break the rules and try to cheat the system'. I especially like the the word "try".

    He takes full responsibility - after the Event - 'cos he was found out to have been totally dishonest and sought an advantage by cheating. Inexcusable and Ego-driven.

    Cycling? Apart from Tommy Simpson who actually died on Mount Ventoux having taken Amphetamines and Brandy etc. dehydration and exhaustion would also have been factors. It's also clear that others took Speed in that era just to get through Le Tour. That's why his fellow riders did not condemn him.

    More recently, it's been EPO and this has been admitted by Bjarne Riis, who beat Miguel Indurain preventing a Record 6th Le Tour victory. EPO has also helped kill other young cyclists owing to effect it has on Blood thickening - according to Reports. Otherwise the soigneur Wille De Voet comes to Mind - his car was stopped by Gendarmes and he had EVERYTHING.

    Silva? Bad Man. A Reputation Lost.
    None of these are Anabolic or Androgenic steroids though. EPO is the only hormone in the list you've mentioned.

    Since "roids" is meant by the general population to refer to Anabolic and Androgenic steroids, I take Alex' question to refer to them. So to answer his question "Who has ever died from roids", the generally accepted answer is "No one where we can conclusively prove the roids did it". Some people have died from heart failure and cancer, but both of these can be caused by a hundred other things.

    EPO certainly has killed several people due to the blood thickening that occurs, but like I said, I don't think most people think of EPO in quite the same light as "those things bodybuilders take that make them big and aggresive" :)
  9. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 1:17pm


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandion View Post
    None of these are Anabolic or Androgenic steroids though. EPO is the only hormone in the list you've mentioned.

    Since "roids" is meant by the general population to refer to Anabolic and Androgenic steroids, I take Alex' question to refer to them. So to answer his question "Who has ever died from roids", the generally accepted answer is "No one where we can conclusively prove the roids did it". Some people have died from heart failure and cancer, but both of these can be caused by a hundred other things.

    EPO certainly has killed several people due to the blood thickening that occurs, but like I said, I don't think most people think of EPO in quite the same light as "those things bodybuilders take that make them big and aggresive" :)
    The OP stated "illegal substances". Steroids was not confirmed. The debate opened out. Alex was a contributor - he was not the OP. Bob made excellent points on Masking Agents. As a Layman, my understanding is that Testers ask the obvious questions, such as "Why is this World-Class Athlete taking an Anti-Gout medicine?". Answer: 'Cos the World-Class Athlete has taken something else and wants to throw out the Testing mechanism.

    EPO and early deaths from 'blood thickening'. Yeah, I think I wrote that 'cos you've quoted me stating it so it's not much of a contribution to the debate.

    When the Analysis comes through, then we MAY or may not know what he took. Anyway, he's admitted Guilt so he definitely and knowingly took something illegal.

    I shall look to see how his fellow competitors behave toward him. That might be a clue. As an analogy when Christie won Olympic Gold, I couldn't shake the Memory of Seoul.

    That's just me. If wholesale Drug use were Accepted, it might make it a more level Playing Field. I will have switched off by then.
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