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  1. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 11:48am

    supporting member
     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    How we can save Aikido: An honest opinion.

    Ok. I'll start by stating that I have a modest experience with Aikido over many years involving training with Aikidoka of vastly different philosophical outlooks, physical abilities, and training methodologies.

    I started to think about a few opinions I had read in some threads here, and about my own experiences with Aikido, and have come to the conclusion, that with no other martial art, with the possible exception of some obscure TCMA or overly acrobatic Booj Dojos, will give you the same high-level constant ukemi practice.

    As I mentioned - this point has been brought up before, that ukemi in Aikido isn't only crucial to the art, it IS the art. Tori's job after all, is just a different kind of ukemi, right?

    If we operate under the suspicion that Aikido is a means of dealing with Ueshiba's attacks, much like Judo is a way of dealing with Kano's attacks, we can probably surmise that Ueshiba prized (and probably sported) a very elusive fighting style, perhaps due to a very advanced Ukemi. (rolling out of the way of a strike to control the sword arm from behind, and failing good position, able to roll and gain better position again?)

    If this is a plausible explanation, then perhaps modern Aikido could transition into an MMA or SD accompaniment called UKEMIDO which includes the study of MA-AIDO.

    To define specifically what kind of training this should constitute, and to what amount of time the modern fighter may get value out of investing in intensive ukemi training is really a matter of discussion, a discussion I hope to encourage out of the JMA and MMA community here.

    What I'm proposing is perhaps a single training session per week of standard length (1-2 hrs) dedicated entirely to breakfalling, rolling safely, learning how to roll behind someone (or indeed through them, if the technique is appropriate).

    How do the other bullies feel about this?
  2. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 11:50am

    supporting member
     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    How we can save Aikido: An honest opinion.

    Ok. I'll start by stating that I have a modest experience with Aikido over many years involving training with Aikidoka of vastly different philosophical outlooks, physical abilities, and training methodologies.

    I started to think about a few opinions I had read in some threads here, and about my own experiences with Aikido, and have come to the conclusion, that with no other martial art, with the possible exception of some obscure TCMA or overly acrobatic Booj Dojos, will give you the same high-level constant ukemi practice.

    As I mentioned - this point has been brought up before, that ukemi in Aikido isn't only crucial to the art, it IS the art. Tori's job after all, is just a different kind of ukemi, right?

    If we operate under the suspicion that Aikido is a means of dealing with Ueshiba's attacks, much like Judo is a way of dealing with Kano's attacks, we can probably surmise that Ueshiba prized (and probably sported) a very elusive fighting style, perhaps due to a very advanced Ukemi. (rolling out of the way of a strike to control the sword arm from behind, and failing good position, able to roll and gain better position again?)

    If this is a plausible explanation, then perhaps modern Aikido could transition into an MMA or SD accompaniment called UKEMIDO which includes the study of MA-AIDO.

    To define specifically what kind of training this should constitute, and to what amount of time the modern fighter may get value out of investing in intensive ukemi training is really a matter of discussion, a discussion I hope to encourage out of the JMA and MMA community here.

    What I'm proposing is perhaps a single training session per week of standard length (1-2 hrs) dedicated entirely to breakfalling, rolling safely, learning how to roll behind someone (or indeed through them, if the technique is appropriate).

    How do the other bullies feel about this?
  3. Conde Koma is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 1:25pm

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     Style: Judo,MT,Boxing,BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    could have interesting results. i'm subscribing to see what other people say, i don't have the space to participate at the moment.
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  4. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 1:28pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  5. tao.jonez is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 1:38pm


     Style: JKD, Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Elusive rolling could work, but only in limited circumstances.

    "Never trust a quote you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln



  6. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 1:39pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To clarify - I'm not representing the Ukemi as a combat tool outside the realms of potential personal safety with regard to safe falling.

    If there is a further implication, it is that falling safely in an expert or well-trained manner will enable a potentially quicker recovery of a bad position involving open space between you and an assault.
  7. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 2:01pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ukemi has saved my ass dozens of times while skateboarding. In da str33tz!
  8. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 2:06pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's saved my ass from generally being a clumsy bastard too.
    Falls that may have seriously injured me, I have sustained minimal damage from due to practised Ukemi. (ie: I've never broken a bone, and it's not for lack of trying).
  9. tao.jonez is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 2:07pm


     Style: JKD, Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    If there is a further implication, it is that falling safely in an expert or well-trained manner will enable a potentially quicker recovery of a bad position involving open space between you and an assault.
    OK, but why Aikido-specific breakfalling? What seems to me to be specific to aikido are the big wheel type rolls. Seems like very few of the takedowns in MMA lend themselves to this type of recovery, since there are no aikido type throws (that I've seen).

    You said the point is "breakfalling, rolling safely, learning how to roll behind someone (or indeed through them, if the technique is appropriate)". Out of all that, breakfalling seems to have some potential, the rest is garbage under MMA ruleset.

    Why not devote that time to train judo breakfalls and positional recovery? Or just focus on control in the post-throw scramble? Rolling away allows both parties to re-set. If you're the party that just got thrown (therefore needs to breakfall), that's probably not to your advantage.

    When they change the ruleset so that the "rolling out of the way of a strike to control the sword arm from behind" becomes necessary, THAT's when to start aikido break-roll training.
    "Never trust a quote you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln



  10. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 2:11pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is more from a SD perspective than an MMA perspective, but if you have been thrown to the ground, and you are close enough to be kicked in the face, yet you are not close enough to smother a kick attempt with a takedown or shoot of any type, I think rolling backward to reset your distance is a perfectly favourable outcome.

    In addition to this, it's not about Aikido-specific breakfalling. The reason that Aikido is the case in point is because during Aikido training (overly compliant drilling) you will be thrown to the ground probably 2 to 3 as many times as you would during a judo, wrestling, or JJ class. This means you get more breakfall practice.

    The point here isn't to improve modern MMA.

    The point is to retain what are probably the only relevant valuable waza in a modern fight (the ukemi) in a dying system.
    Last edited by Colin; 4/08/2011 2:16pm at .
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