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  1. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 1:31am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where's Wado?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  2. ninpolives is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 5:17am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate / Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow...All I do is post a message inviting a civil discussion regarding Ninjutsu, and when I get back from work and check I find mostly a barrage of hate mail. So much for civility.

    Ok, first of all: The reason I wrote that there are known to have been over 100 styles of Ninjutsu in ancient times is because a respected historical document called the Bansenshukai records that there were 53 families from the Koga region and 45 families from the Iga region who were known to practice some form of Ninjutsu. It is no contradiction to also say that arguing over historical origins of styles is pointless because of the extreme secrecy of this particular art. There are some recognized historical documents relating to the art that have survived, most notably the Shoninki, Bansenshukai, and Ninpiden, all three of which are considered legitimate. These provide us with at least some information about the historical ninja that we can trust (at least as much as you would trust any historical document).
    But, even so, there are many problems inherent in trying to trace the origins of a secretive and mostly outlawed style, much less many of them. These are two facts which I was mentioning. They do not contradict but complement one another. The only reason I mentioned the number of styles was to point out that it isn't really that far-fetched to say that three of them survived to be incorporated into the bujinkan system at a later point. Many other styles have also preserved traces of ninjutsu, including Tenshin Katori Shinto-Ryu, Kukishin-ryu, and some styles of Kempo (can't verify the Kempo one for sure).
    Hatsumi's version of ninja history is not that different from the accepted history. He does not dispute that Ninja engaged in tactics of assassination, espionage, sabotage, and the like. He simply gives a different motivation for these actions. Basically he says that these types of tactics were developed as a means of resistance against the oppressive ways of the samurai. They could never hope to beat the samurai in their kind of fight, so they developed a new way of fighting, using tactics that samurai considered to be beneath them. Hatsumi also doesnt dispute that some ninja engaged in mercenary work and became famous for their ruthlessness. He simply says that they ceased to be true ninja when they decided to abandon their principles and become hired thugs.

    Most martial arts of significant age have legends associated with them. Most of these legends cannot be confirmed or disproven. Ninjutsu is the same.

    As for what I think a ninja moves like...Ok, you don't have to be a friggin koryu soke to know that a ninja is supposed to be good at moving silently. When I see guys who are black belts doing rolls that would wake the dead and stomping like elephants, it's hard to think of them as Ninja. This is what I saw from some of the people at the first Bujinkan dojo I went to.

    -The reason I say it was watered down for the masses is because Soke Hatsumi ADMITTED it in his book, as I said in the original post. Also, many early BJK people have come forward and said the same. It seems that everyone agrees on this one. In a way, I can't blame hatsumi for wanting to be careful about who is taught what. He doesnt want criminals calling themselves ninjas to be associated with his school.

    Oh yeah, and Judo/BJJ were not watered down for the masses in the same way as Ninjutsu...they were simply changed into sports. With Ninjutsu, some people are trying to turn it into some type of aikido-type philosophical art. Two different kinds of dilution here.
  3. Like_A_Boss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 5:20am


     Style: MMA / MT / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ninpolives View Post
    In only 3 months of practicing this art, I have sampled them both.
    Quote Originally Posted by ninpolives View Post
    If you want to understand the art, you first need to understand this.
    Understand that you have done Ninjutsu for 3 months and have nothing beneficial to add.
    Plus understand that people like me who have studied Ninjutsu for years hate people like you cause you re-inforce the stereotype.
  4. Prince Vlad is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 5:22am


     Style: BJJ n stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @ the OP.
    I usually wade into the mire that is a 'ninpo lives' thread at about this point:) Like a few others here I have experienced the r34l Bujinkan. I lived in Japan for a few years and trained with one of the original shihan. As far as I know 'the old Bujinkan' that you mentioned was only experienced by a handful of people from the 50's to to the early 70's. If you travel to Japan and train with some of these guys you MIGHT get an idea of how they used to train but it will still be watered down. I've heard the stories straight from the horses mouth and I believe that the old training was a lot harder but I am certain that none of the Japanese shihan teach this method or ever thought it themselves. Sparring/randori as you see in kakutogi or combat sports was never a part of the Bujinkan because it is a technique based art.
    So where did you experience this 'old bujinkan' training exactly? If it was outside of Japan, who is your instructor and who did he train with and for how long?
    Last edited by Prince Vlad; 3/15/2011 5:29am at .
  5. ninpolives is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 6:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate / Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, getting on with it...

    You people seem to have a very warped perception of the art. It is not about learning secret techniques or trying to emulate some band of mideival assassins. We do learn stealth and evasion as survival skills (at least if you find a good instructor). I say anyone who claims to know Ninjutsu ought to be skilled in stealthy movement. We do not learn black magic, thieving skills, or anything like it, So you can relax.

    One of you was correct in pointing out that Historical Ninjutsu was not heavy on hand-to-hand combat. This brings me to a major point:
    -Ninjutsu was intended to be used in real combat. It is designed around that goal.
    -MMA fighting was intended to be used in sport fighting. It is designed around that goal.
    to compare these arts is like comparing apples to oranges. It would be stupid for a ninja to roll around on the ground humping another man's face when he's supposed to remain undetected. Likewise, it would be immoral to use bone-breaking techniques such as those found in Koppojutsu in a sport fight. Likewise, weapons are prohibited in a sport fight, whereas a ninja is trained to be able to pick up just about anything and use it as a weapon.
    Also, most MMA fights have plenty of rules. One of these explains the dominance of BJJ in these types of events, in my opinion. I am referring to the fact that you can't stomp or kick someone while they are down. If someone tried rolling around on the ground like that in a real fight they would either a: get a backful of broken glass and rusty nails
    b: get killed when the attacker's buddies show up
    c: get killed when the attacker pulls a weapon
    d: (most likely) get their guts stomped out.
    Likewise, if a real ninja tried to win an MMA tourney, it probably wouldnt happen because Ninjutsu is not an arena fighting style. If the ninja did win, they would have to seriously maim or even kill their opponent. Not because Ninjutsu is more "badass", but simply because it is designed to do those things. Muay Thai is an arena fighting style, which is why those guys do well in MMA. It's closer to what they are used to.

    Oh yeah, and my teacher is only charging 25 bucks every three months. And as for the first group I went to, although I was disappointed with their training, I have to say they were not in it for the money. I offered my tuition on day one but the teacher turned it down, saying I could wait at least a month to start paying tuition at all. I bet im paying less for my training than you are...oh, but I forgot BJK is just a "money machine"...

    My "claims" are only to have studied a wide variety of martial arts and used them in matches and street fights. I don't claim to be some badass undefeated fighter...I'll be the first to tell you ive taken as well as given my share of whoopings. Happens to all of us.

    Like I said before, I understand some of the criticism of the Bujinkan, and I agree they should put sparring and randori back in as a rule, but to say the whole art is worthless just because some of its practitioners are weak, while at the same time ignoring the fact that some of us do actually train hard?...that doesnt sound to me like someone interested in the truth. That sounds more like bias.
  6. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    :)

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 6:10am

    supporting member
     Style: Ex-Tiger KF, ex-SanDa

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    originally posted by Ninpolives: My "claims" are only to have studied a wide variety of martial arts and used them in matches and street fights. I don't claim to be some badass undefeated fighter...I'll be the first to tell you ive taken as well as given my share of whoopings. Happens to all of us.
    Matches and street fights? I missed that bit. what's your record?
  7. Like_A_Boss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 6:17am


     Style: MMA / MT / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ninpolives View Post
    Like I said before, I understand some of the criticism of the Bujinkan, and I agree they should put sparring and randori back in as a rule, but to say the whole art is worthless just because some of its practitioners are weak, while at the same time ignoring the fact that some of us do actually train hard?...that doesnt sound to me like someone interested in the truth. That sounds more like bias.
    No they think it's worthless because some tool just wrote on a forum about black magic and the need for training in stealth.

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  8. ninpolives is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 6:33am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate / Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ok, How am I reinforcing a stereotype?

    When I speak of "old-style bujinkan" training, I am referring to the fact that we practice at pretty much full speed, and when you fail to do a technique properly, you get hurt for it. We have not gotten into sparring etc yet but I have been assured it will be included. Also, we do not practice forms. We do not wear ninja costumes, or engage in LARPing. I have already been told that skills of body hardening and acrobatics are required...point is, we arent just learning empty-hand forms like some people. I am not saying it is the same as what the very first bujinkan students got. Im just saying that it's probably more like that. My shihan is named Mike Stanfeld and he trained with both Hayes and Hatsumi when the art was still very new to america. He says that when he first started, training was harder than it is now. Is it the same as what you're talking about? I honestly dont know. I just know shihan made it clear from day one that we would be learning "the old way". What I have experienced thus far is:
    -dodging techniques practiced against full-speed strikes
    -an emphasis on moving silently
    -techniques that are simple and practical while also being highly technical.
    -learning to use common objects as weapons
    -one thing I have noticed: say what you will of the Ninjutsu lunge punch but it has some serious power if you land it. I got knocked back about four steps by a little skinny dude, and I was holding a mat to cushion it.
    Since he is old enough to have trained in the 60's or 70's, and he got the majority of his training in japan, he might have been one of those few you speak of, but I don't know. I can ask him for more information at next class if you like. You're the first person so far to write a civil response to what I thought was a fairly civil post.
  9. ninpolives is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 6:40am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate / Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I only mentioned "black magic" because someone on here was cracking jokes about it. And there is nothing wrong with learning to be stealthy if you need to be. When I say "street fights and matches" Im not talking about some professional fighting circuit or something. Im just saying Ive used martial arts in real life before, and that when I was involved in Karate I did a lot of minor regional tournaments. I did pretty good but had a hard time following the rules. The only thing of real value I learned from those competitions was that they are often won by those who know how to work the rules to their advantage.
  10. Like_A_Boss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 7:05am


     Style: MMA / MT / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ninpolives View Post
    one thing I have noticed: say what you will of the Ninjutsu lunge punch but it has some serious power if you land it.
    It does have alot of power and I use many of the strikes, blocks and footwork I learned in Ninjutsu, during sparring. But dont get confused what you call:

    "dodging techniques practiced against full-speed strikes"

    These "strikes" are not realistic and therefore the whole larping aspect comes into play.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but you and your training partner face each other probably arms length apart you then get told to throw "x" punch ("x" being straight, hook, haymaker etc..)
    You then throw punch and pause while he does his move. Yes the punch was fast maybe it was full power but he knew it was coming and he knew there would be no follow up attack.

    The "aliveness" factor is missing, actuall sparring against a non compliant opponent.

    Hey but whatever I have only been training Ninjutsu now for 4 years.

    Oh and stealth training has no place in modern Martial Arts.
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