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  1. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2011 8:09am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Judo as self defence? (ATTN: Judoka_uk)

    I've left my copy of 'Mind Over Muscle' at home, but for openers here's a couple of quotes from the internets indicating that Kano intended Judo to be for fighting as well as for exercise and moral development.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://judoinfo.com/kano1.htm
    The object of a systematic physical training in Judo is not only to develop the body but to enable a man or a woman to have a perfect control over mind and body and make him or her ready to meet any emergency whether that be a pure accident or an attack by others.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://judoinfo.com/kano1.htm
    This can be said to meet two purposes: (1) bodily development, and (2) training in the art of contest. As every nation is required to provide for national defense, so every individual must know how to defend himself. In this age of enlightenment, nobody would care to prepare either for national aggressions or for doing individual violence to others. But defense in the cause of justice and humanity must never be neglected by a nation or by an individual.
  2. Notquitesane is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 12:42pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ...yeah it's pretty much agreed that judo can be used for self defense. Do you have a specific point or question?
  3. crackhead is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 9:02pm


     Style: judo/jujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're going to do judo you should also cross train in a striking art.
  4. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 9:28pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    .... duh? But watch some early UFCs, see what pure grapplers can do to pure strikers.
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  5. kenny_free is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2011 9:30pm


     Style: cult of crapple, ATTACK

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master View Post
    .... duh? But watch some early UFCs, see what pure grapplers can do to pure strikers.
    Don frye. (not quite pure, but great example)
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 8:52am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

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    Quote Originally Posted by crackhead View Post
    If you're going to do judo you should also cross train in a striking art.
    Someone's head hitting the ground doesn't count as 'striking'?
  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 1:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hi Pointy, only just seen your thread.

    Am a bit busy at the moment, so will just post a few things now and then give you a full reply on friday or saturday.

    Well you have done what Jim_Jude does, you have selected material that is ambiguous outside of the context of the flow of Kano's argument.

    The article's starts with Kano making a clear delineation between Jujutsu and what he is teaching, Judo.

    I named the subject I teach Judo instead of Jujutsu. In the first place I will explain to you the meaning of these words. Ju means gentle or to give way, Jutsu, an art or practice, and Do, way or principle, so that Jujutsu means an art or practice of gentleness or of giving way in order to ultimately gain the victory; while Judo means the way or principle of the same.
    Can this principle be applied to other fields of human activity? Yes, the same principle can be applied to the improvement of the human body, making it strong, healthy and useful, and so constitutes physical education. It can also be applied to the improvement of intellectual and moral power, and in this way constitutes mental and moral education. It can at the same time be applied to the improvement of diet, clothing, housing, social intercourse, and methods of business, thus constituting the study and training in living. I gave this all-pervading principle the name of "Judo".

    So Judo, in its fuller sense, is a study and method in training of mind and body as in the regulation of life and affairs.
    As is evident from this quote Kano does not define his Judo through self-defence in any way. In Kano's words Judo ' is a study and method in training of mind and body as in the regulation of life and affairs'

    Kano continues to contextualise where combat fits into his conception of Judo.

    Judo, therefore, in one of its phases, can be studied and practiced with attack and defense for its main object. Before I started Kodokan, this attack and defense phase of Judo only was studied and practiced in Japan under the name of Jiu-jitsu, sometimes called "Tai-Jitsu", meaning the art of managing the body or "Yawara", the "gentle management." But I came to think that the study of this all-pervading principle is more important that the mere practice of Jiu-jitsu, because the real understanding of the principle not only enables one to apply it to all phases of life, but is also of great service in the study of the art of Jiu-jitsu itself.
    Note here he makes no mention of self-defence only the actual process of attack and defence, which is of course crucial to fighting. It is not, however, a statement of training specifically for self-defence.

    Kano then proceeds to give his opinion on the state of physical education and other forms of physical education. This is important, because Kano is clearly placing Judo in the sphere of physical education, not the sphere of combative training.

    Kano concludes his thoughts on the ideal form of physical education by laying out some key criteria.

    This ideal form can only be devised from a study based on maximum efficiency. In order to fulfill all those conditions or requirements, a system of all-round development of the body...Next, the movements should have some meaning so that they may be engaged in with interest. Again, the activities should be such as require no large space, special dress or equipment. Furthermore, they must be such as could be done individually as well as in groups. Those are the conditions or requirements for a satisfactory system of physical education for a whole nation. Any system that can meet successfully those requirements may, for the first time, be regarded as a program of physical education based on the principle of maximum efficiency.
    This is important because Kano believes there are two methods that meet his criteria for a physical education form. The 'representative form' and the 'attack and defence form'. Kano is locating his conception of 'attack and defence' in the sphere of physical education as a tool for physical education not in the sphere of combatives.

    There is one other form, which I named "attack and defense form." In this, I have combined different methods of attack and defense, in such a way that the result will conduce to the harmonious development of the whole body. Ordinary methods of attack and defense taught in Jiu-jitsu cannot be said to be ideal for the development of the body, therefore, I have especially combined them so that they fulfill the conditions necessary for the harmonious development of the body.
    It is at this point that your second quote comes in.

    This can be said to meet two purposes: (1) bodily development, and (2) training in the art of contest. As every nation is required to provide for national defense, so every individual must know how to defend himself. In this age of enlightenment, nobody would care to prepare either for national aggressions or for doing individual violence to others. But defense in the cause of justice and humanity must never be neglected by a nation or by an individual.
    If you excise the quote from the context of the flow of the article it looks quite significant and authoritative. However, if you place it within the flow of the article and contrast the amount of text dedicated to it compared to the amount of text dedicated to talking about Judo as a method of education. You can see its true significance is less than the stand alone quote would seem.

    Note that of the two purposes that physical education in Judo can be said to meet that 'training in the art of contest' is the second after 'bodily development'. Also that it is for 'contest' that Kano belives it prepares you for, not for street encounters.

    Kano is discussing sport, and as such is locating his conception of 'contest' within the sphere of sport. Not in the sphere of combatives and street fighting.

    Kano continues to re-focus back on his core message of Judo as a 'method of physical education in attack and defense form'. Remember, of course, how earlier Kano defined what he means by 'attack and defence form'.

    Kano continues, slightly later in the piece to give clarification on precisely the purpose of Judo.

    If I now state in a concise form what I have said, it might be summed up as follows:
    Judo is a study and training in mind and body as well as in the regulation of one's life and affairs. From the thorough study of the different methods of attack and defense I became convinced that they all depend on the application of one all-pervading principle, namely: "Whatever be the object, it can best be attained by the highest or maximum efficient use of mind and body for that purpose". Just as this principle applied to the methods of attack and defense constitutes Jiu-jitsu, so does this same principle, applied to physical, mental and moral culture, as well as to ways of living and carrying on of business, constitute the study of, and the training in, those things.
    Once the real importance of this principle is understood, it may be applied to all phases of life and activity and enable one to lead the highest and the most rational life. The real understanding of this principle need not necessarily be arrived at through the training in the methods of attack and defense, but as I came to conceive of this idea through training in these methods, I made such training in contest and the training for the development of the body the regular means of arriving at the principle.

    This principle of maximum efficiency, when applied to the keying up or perfecting of social life, just as when applied to the coordination of mind and body, in the science of attack and defense, demands, first of all, order and harmony among its members, and this can only be attained through mutual aid and concessions, leading to mutual welfare and benefit.

    The final aim of Judo, therefore, is to inculcate in the mind of man a spirit of respect for the principle of maximum efficiency and of mutual welfare and benefit, leading him so to practice them that man individually and collectively can attain to the highest state, and, at the same time, develop the body and learn the art of attack and defense.
    Note how throughout the 'attack and defence form' is the vehicle to achieve the moral and physical education and improvements. Kano seeks to build better people and a better society. Not a cadre trained in combatives.

    Throughout the piece Kano gives only scant attention to the combative aspects of Judo. Leaving this as mere side comments on the overall message of Judo as a method of moral and physical education.
    As to your second quote
    The object of a systematic physical training in Judo is not only to develop the body but to enable a man or a woman to have a perfect control over mind and body and make him or her ready to meet any emergency whether that be a pure accident or an attack by others.
    Note again how the main thrust of Kano’s point is about mastery over the body, control over the body and that Kano has a distinction in his head between an ‘emergency’ where these skills would be needed and an ‘attack by others’. Self-defence is, as the sentence indicated, the last thing on Kano’s mind for those body control skills, not the first or even second.

    I think in concluding some of Kano's words from Watson's 'Judo Memoirs' are appropriate.

    'If I had merely wished to teach a martial art, I would have perhaps named my dojo Renbukan (institute for martial arts practice) or Kobukan (martial arts institute) or perhaps Shobukan (military institute). I especially avoided the use of such terms though. the chief reason that I chose the name Kodokan was that 'do' of Judo is the fundamental 'path' of life to which the skills are applied.
  8. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2011 7:49am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenny_free View Post
    Don frye. (not quite pure, but great example)
    Don Frye boxed professionally. But he was primarily a grapper (Judo/wrestling).
  9. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/17/2011 1:35pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Don Frye boxed professionally. But he was primarily a grapper (Judo/wrestling).
    He was a wrestler (don't know about the boxing) who learned some Judo from he who shall not be named.

    Ben
  10. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2011 2:08pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wasn't that Severn? Frye did have at least one pro boxing fight before the UFC.
    Frye says say he was trained by Steve Owen in Judo. http://www.thepredatordonfrye.com/history.asp
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