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  1. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    Perhaps a redundancy, not an irrelevancy.
    Then defend it. Demonstrate that the title is relevant to the discussion of psychological vs neurological (to the extent that the two can even be separated!) and then demonstrate that inclusion in the DSM means psychological not neurological. Those were your claims.

    Prove them or retract.


    That doesn't mean you're qualified to perform medicine.
    Amusingly, no psychologist who isn't also an MD is qualified to perform medicine, at least in the US. Do you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about?

    Let's consider this. I never said she had no expertise -- however, this does indicate I should consider her opinion with a grain of salt. Even if she were internationally recognized, that makes her but one expert. Even so, we'd have to compare her opinion with current scientific consensus.
    Nice moving of the goalposts. First it was about me not being an expert, but I consulted one. Then "only" a student and we must wait for her to "graduate", now the bar is "internationally recognized" and "current scientific consensus."

    Like many morons, you really don't know how social sciences—and psychology is a social science, with connections to harder sciences like biology and applied sciences like medicine, but also to humanities like philosophy and cultural studies—works.

    So, plain and simple. You pointed to, but did not cite, the DSM, to make your claim that transgender identities are a psychological rather than a neurological phenomenon. Well, show us how the DSM actually supports your claim. I've provided a link to the relevant pages. Nothing of the sort is there because the DSM isn't concerned with etiology. Did I miss something, or were you just hoping that the people you were talking to were even more ignorant than you are? If I missed something, provide me with what I missed. If you cannot do so, you are wrong and should be silent.

    So, next post, provide or retract. Don't muddy the waters, don't make another claim and insist that's what you meant all along. Here's your claim:

    Word games. It's a psychological issue known as Gender Identity Disorder, and is catalogued as such in the DSM-IV. Google it.


    Show that the DSM claims either that GID is psychological and not neurological, and/or that the DSM believes a distinction between neurology and psychology to be "word games."

    Your next post is to have this demonstration. Do you understand?
  2. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:15pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    Oh, it's okay to discuss things -- but that does not mean our opinion should bear as much weight as a someone with a degree.
    Possibly. There are people with degrees that disagree. Should a layperson's opinion coincide with one held by a degree holder, it can be bolstered with their evidence/opinion.

    I'm not a degree holding musicologist, but I've had discussions with several over the years, and we had a good old time. An informed opinion, whether by means of a college/private/personal education should always be welcome in a discussion that isn't a momentary life-or-death one.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:17pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    Oh, it's okay to discuss things -- but that does not mean our opinion should bear as much weight as a someone with a degree.
    I see you are trying to breathe, but you are still making the same errors. You added the weight ALL BY YOURSELF.

    Oh and come on. A degree doesn't always mean people have more knowledge. If you think this way it explains a **** ton about your thinking. Professionals can be and have been wrong on numerous occasions just like the guy who never finished high school. The frequency may not be the same, but you should want to qualify both of their assertions.
  4. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:32pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Then defend it. Demonstrate that the title is relevant to the discussion of psychological vs neurological (to the extent that the two can even be separated!) and then demonstrate that inclusion in the DSM means psychological not neurological. Those were your claims.
    My claim was that the OP was playing word games. Whatever term you decide to use, it's still in the DSM-IV. My proof? It actually is in the DSM-IV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Amusingly, no psychologist who isn't also an MD is qualified to perform medicine, at least in the US.
    Inconsequential. I was talking about the difference in opinions between experts and laymen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Nice moving of the goalposts. First it was about me not being an expert, but I consulted one.
    You consulted someone with expertise, which is different from looking at the consensus of scientific opinion. Afterall, plenty of people with expertise turn out to be quacks. I'm not saying your wife is one, but I should consider your "consultation" with a grain of salt -- seeing how I know so little about her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington
    Lots of mouth-breathing...
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    Possibly. There are people with degrees that disagree. Should a layperson's opinion coincide with one held by a degree holder, it can be bolstered with their evidence/opinion.
    Sure, I understand what you're saying. But whose opinion do you think I should regard more -- someone with or without a degree?

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Oh and come on. A degree doesn't always mean people have more knowledge.
    I agree, but it does mean that they're more likely to know about a certain topic than someone without a degree. This is why I say, that with any topic regarding science, the scientific consensus should be the first consideration.
    Last edited by atomicpoet; 8/05/2011 7:36pm at .
  5. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:36pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    My claim was that the OP was playing word games. Whatever term you decide to use, it's still in the DSM-IV. My proof? It actually is in the DSM-IV.
    You fail. You have not demonstrated that neurological vs psychological is a word game, nor does your appeal to DSM show that GI is psychological and not neurological.

    That's okay. I knew you'd fail. See, you'll find that it's easier to prove your point if you know what you're talking about. Many people these days can see when someone is just casting about for any ol' collection of pseudo-facts and quasi-cites to reinforce what they already believe.

    Now your goal should be to stop failing so publicly and consistently. Given your MR, this may just involve not trying in the first place.
  6. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    Sure, I understand what you're saying. But whose opinion do you think I should regard more -- someone with or without a degree?
    Amusingly, you clearly regard your own degreeless opinion as superior to the opinion of people with degrees.
  7. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:38pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    See, you'll find that it's easier to prove your point if you know what you're talking about. Many people these days can see when someone is just casting about for any ol' collection of pseudo-facts and quasi-cites to reinforce what they already believe.
    Thank you for essentially saying what I've been saying this entire time. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
  8. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:41pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    Thank you for essentially saying what I've been saying this entire time. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
    Ah, the "I am rubber and you are glue!" strategy. Well, it's easier than actually typing up what you should have, specifically: "I was wrong. The existence of a GID entry in DSM has nothing whatsoever to do with the etiology of the phenomenon. I was just annoyed at the idea of GI being neurological because I already had it in my head that it wasn't, and considering other possibilities and research is difficult for me because I am extremely stupid. I'm sorry. Please gongsau me to death."
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    The only point I ever made is that we should let scientists and medical professionals use terms that let them do their jobs. After all, who are we to interfere with their work? Did we earn their degrees?
    You made multiple assertions/points. A discussion is interfering with their work?

    You really fucking said that?

    Before you move the goal posts no, groups do not affect their work. So what if they whine and want them to change a word? If that affects their work and studies they need to quit.
  10. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    Sure, I understand what you're saying. But whose opinion do you think I should regard more -- someone with or without a degree?
    Really, it depends on the situation. I know people with degrees that don't know **** about anything, least of all their major. I never majored in music, or took a class on it, beyond the 9th grade, but I know my **** in-and-out. 2+ decades of obsession can compete.

    Some of my pals/hired-guns are degree holding musicians, some even teach privately, or in colleges. There's no iron-clad rule that a degree propels someone beyond their other learned peers. For finding a teaching job...yes, for knowing what's what...not necessarily.

    Four years of a good music school is a powerful thing, but at the end of the day, it's about what's produced. Great lawyers can come out of marginal schools, some of the great scientists existed outside of the establishment at one point, talent, knowledge and perception are separate from following a college program to the end (I had almost enough art credits for a degree but couldn't stomach the core classes).

    I have a great respect for higher learning, my sister is a materials science professor, and brother (and wife) are geologists. I won't be debating them on surface tensions or sedimentary layering anytime soon. There are instances however, where people can voice a reasoned, rational, and well based argument on a subject they haven't been officially schooled in.
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