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  1. #11

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
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    Canada
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    20,890
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To learn to fight you MUST fight, eventually.
    And to learn to "defend" yourself you MUST BE ATTACKED.
    Or all you are learing is how do be yourself seriously fucked up.

  2. #12
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Posts
    5,426
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All in all, I agree on all the points made by Hedge (this thread seems out of MAP, everybody agrees with everything). All levels of self defense, from H2H to weapon defense, should indeed be practiced in a realistic manner - i.e. by doing it and by having it done to you without a script.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    5,529
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excellent post.

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    NW Arkansas
    Posts
    2,525
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i concur,

    good post hedge

  5. #15
    Community Corrections Officer supporting member
    Matt W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    3,621
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Everyone's correct! :D

    The difference between learning techniques and learning to fight is that when learning to fight you learn both the techniques and how to apply them in a real situation.

    Regards,
    Matt

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    angola, ny
    Posts
    2,040
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    if you know how to get in, you know how to get out.

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    6,918
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    otherwise known as reverse engineering, it works.

  8. #18
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Posts
    5,426
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    At this point we should do a group hug and agree that we all also love dogs.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    5,529
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lets hold hands and sing...

  10. #20
    Punisher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    2,943
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Think of an instructor teaching a defense against a lapel grab. The instructor shows the student to grab the hand and execute a wristlock. The students then take turns performing the technique.

    This "defense" is flawed. Why? Because it distances you from the attack itself (also there is no resistance to the technique). It teaches the student to think "I know a defense for this!" without having to learn the attack they're defending against.
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but just like everything else are degrees to things.

    For example when self-defense drills at my dojo both people are supposed to be learning learning. The attacker IS supposed to be learning how to do the attack. During testing the attack is graded on how well they do the attack.

    We also add in various degrees of resistance. The attacker is trying to find ways to counter the defense and since the "attacker" knows exactly what the "defense" is going to be they can often resist more effectively than in a spontaneous situation. The best defenses are the ones that still work when the attacker knows exactly what you are about to do, but he still can't stop it.

    The main problem with this type of training is that often the attacks are announced. It is easy to do the right thing, when you know exactly what is coming. Once you learn and understand some defenses you can move to broader groups. For example, instead of working a defense for a left rear hook punch, allow all punches. Eventually you get to the point where all attacks are allowed.

    I'm not saying self-defense drills are the end all, or even that they can replace sparring, only that they can be useful and can be modified to fill in the middle ground.

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