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  1. Beginners Mind

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:10pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Oh and let me add you are Utterly WRONG about XIngyi. It is one of the most LINEAR CMAs, probably more so than Baji,out in the world. It is only trained by poor teachers as a multiple opponent art. That goes for Tai Chi, which is a clinch and throw art, as well. Stick to what you know not what you heard.
    Don't really want to debate about Xingyi, but it was founded by a Chinese general who regularly used in actual combat against multiple opponents bearing swords and spears.

    :staredad:
  2. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    I understand what you are saying, and I can see that. But I'm a bit lost about what we are debating. Obviously, one highly trained Shou Shu or Aikido person could not take out two or three opponents of equal skill, unless it was by pure luck.

    The claim of multiple opponents is, generally, against multiple opponents of less skill than yourself. Otherwise, what are we claiming? That one of our fifth degree blackbelts could defeat 2, 3, 4, 8, or 10 of our other fifth degree blackbelts? That's ridiculous.
    That's funny earlier you were trying to defend the demo by saying the people being thrown around are yudansha.
    Are you saying that it is impractical to try to develop any method what-so-ever for facing multiple opponents simultaneously and that training methods for facing multiple opponents do not exist? Those fella's attacking him are blackbelt's, not schmoes off the street. Even if their objective was to grab him and detain him, rather than to cause serious bodily injury, can you honestly say that what he did was not an incredible expression of martial skill?

    They can't pin him down, they can't grab him, and they keep getting put in positions (intentionally by Shioda) where they are stumbling over each other. He positions himself so he can face them one or two at a time. That is astonishing!
    According to this you think that he should be able to take multiple skilled opponents.

    If only ONE person in the group is able to beat you then you are screwed they don't have to all be skilled. Again if you can't beat someone one on one what makes you think it will go any different when he has friends?
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  3. Beginners Mind

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:12pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Try this exercise: have your partner grab your wrist. Execute a wrist lock. Instruct them to try to point their fingers to their solar plexus with the hand they grabbed with and bring the hand in to the chest while doing this as soon as you start the wrist lock. Have them use their free hand to punch towards your nose. See how many times you submit them.
    It comes down to the skill of the individual. There is a counter-attack for every counter-attack.
  4. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:12pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You and about 10 others are lucky I can't ban for the "Bouncer" appeal to authority. I am so tired of this bullshit argument.


    I worked security with a weightlifter, who had zero training, and his reputation of strength preceded him. Yes, neither of our examples prove anything.
    Oh thank god IiF is here.

    *popcorn*


    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    It comes down to the skill of the individual. There is a counter-attack for every counter-attack.
    Yea.. exactly. And if 5 people are countering one out of every four moves you do, then you are screwed.
  5. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    The head instructor here at the Charleston school works as a bouncer in downtown Charleston. I have never seen him breakup a conflict or throw anyone out, but he has a reputation that precedes him where he works. People don't start conflicts simply because he is there and they know they probably won't win.
    So you believe in something you have never seen. Also I worked as a bouncer. That is hardly a measuring stick to prove a MA works. Most your patrons are not sober and if you are fighting that means you didn't do your job right. Lastly bouncers work in groups they don't try to take people one one one they rely on their team to watch their back. (Now that it has been brought up our resident active bouncer is going to show and he probably won't be nice about it)
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. Beginners Mind

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:16pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    According to this you think that he should be able to take multiple skilled opponents.

    If only ONE person in the group is able to beat you then you are screwed they don't have to all be skilled. Again if you can't beat someone one on one what makes you think it will go any different when he has friends?
    1. Yes, you should. As long as they are not equal or greater than your skill level, you are paying attention to what is happening, and you have luck on your side that day.

    2. Quite true, if one person of equal or greater skill is in the group, you're probably not going to win.
  7. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:18pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    1. Yes, you should. As long as they are not equal or greater than your skill level, you are paying attention to what is happening, and you have luck on your side that day.

    2. Quite true, if one person of equal or greater skill is in the group, you're probably not going to win.
    We've also suggested, on multiple occasions, that the "skills" you have are greatly inflated in your own mind, and wont work as well as you think against committed real attacks.
  8. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    Don't really want to debate about Xingyi, but it was founded by a Chinese general who regularly used in actual combat against multiple opponents bearing swords and spears.

    :staredad:
    You do realize that he was ARMED when fighting people with swords and spears. There is a reason why Xingyi has weapons forms. NO ONE goes to fight on the battlefield with unarmed. Weapons can be a great equalizer depending on the type it is.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. Beginners Mind

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:22pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    So you believe in something you have never seen. Also I worked as a bouncer. That is hardly a measuring stick to prove a MA works. Most your patrons are not sober and if you are fighting that means you didn't do your job right. Lastly bouncers work in groups they don't try to take people one one one they rely on their team to watch their back. (Now that it has been brought up our resident active bouncer is going to show and he probably won't be nice about it)
    What does "works" mean, in this context? You stopped drunk people from injuring themselves or others. Mission accomplished, it worked. And yes, he has backup. Yes, he stops fights before they happen.

    What makes a martial art "working" vs "not working?" Isn't that depended on the greater context? Time and place in history and the specific situation at hand?
  10. Beginners Mind

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:23pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    You do realize that he was ARMED when fighting people with swords and spears. There is a reason why Xingyi has weapons forms. NO ONE goes to fight on the battlefield with unarmed. Weapons can be a great equalizer depending on the type it is.
    Oh, pardon, pardon. Your right, if you put a spear in your hand and start fighting other armed opponents, then it's no longer Xingyi ;P
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