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  1. huge is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 11:58am


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    :Milk:


    1. What if you can't run away? For instance, on the ancient battlefields of India, China, and Japan.
    Irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    Or, at the back of a bar or club with only one entrance. Or, in a bathroom. Or, with your back against a wall where two, three, or four people are blocking your path? This kind of training is necessary and practical.
    Which scenario would you like to discuss? The one you posted earlier, or one of these? Focus. There's a lot going on in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    2. Which situation? We are discussing the practicality of attacking multiple people at once.
    No we're not. We're discussing Three Hands training people to commit assault.

    What I initially commented on as being akin to assault:
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    Three Hands is geared towards attacking two people who are standing to the left and right of you who are showing aggressive behavior, but have not yet attacked you.

    Scenario you posted in response:
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post

    This memory sticks out to me in particular because, when I started to talk them down, one guy got back in the car and the other two continued to talk trash. They stood with the exact body positioning I had trained to defend against using Three Hands. Rather than blast the remaining two guys, I continued to talk them down. Finally, another guy got back in the car and the last guy attacked me. I ducked down and waited for a gap in his wild swings, uppercut to his jaw and it was over. I walked away.
    These are not the same things. In the second post, you describe a classic self defense situation. They attacked and you defended. Hell, this isn't even multiple attackers technically. This is not what was initially described.
  2. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:00pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    I'm not going to get into a name calling match with you.
    The point stands that situations occasionally arise where you
    cannot talk you way out, walk, or run away.
    I wasn't calling you a name in an attempt to offend you, it was an off-remark based in humor, because of your preposition-filled depiction of self defense. Much like Dr. Seuss' depiction of Green Eggs & Ham.

    You can almost always walk away, run away, or talk your way out of it. I've done it many times. I've also had some of my more "criminal" friends show me (gently, thankfully) how stupid of an idea it is to think you can take on more than one of them at once without a weapon or a group of people backing you up. There were only 2 of them, and I couldn't have done anything to stop them from killing me if they wanted to.

    So yea... if you can't walk away, run away, or talk your way out of it. Give them what they want. You watch too many Seagal movies if you think you can take on a group of people in the back of a bar or in any kind of inescapable combat situation.
  3. Beginners Mind

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:01pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    Think for a minute about how he's getting those joint locks, the Ukes are giving him over-committed attacks and basically handing him their joints.

    They're probably so used to doing it now that they don't even realise its happening. (I know because it happened to me. I STILL have times where I automatically fall down as soon as someone slaps a lock on me)
    I understand what you are saying, and I can see that. But I'm a bit lost about what we are debating. Obviously, one highly trained Shou Shu or Aikido person could not take out two or three opponents of equal skill, unless it was by pure luck.

    The claim of multiple opponents is, generally, against multiple opponents of less skill than yourself. Otherwise, what are we claiming? That one of our fifth degree blackbelts could defeat 2, 3, 4, 8, or 10 of our other fifth degree blackbelts? That's ridiculous.
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    http://www.suenaka.com/

    But I no longer study there, I'm focusing on Shou Shu.
    I am familiar with the affiliate dojo in Atlanta, GA because my sister in law asked me about it for her boys. If they are an indication of what you do in your school then I'm sorry but I think you are not doing things much different than most other Aikido dojos. Meaning that if you ever put it to a test and try use Aikido against real attacks and committed attackers it is not going to go the way you think. It definitely won't look like Shioda's demo.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  5. Beginners Mind

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:04pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zerstörer90 View Post
    So yea... if you can't walk away, run away, or talk your way out of it. Give them what they want. You watch too many Seagal movies if you think you can take on a group of people in the back of a bar or in any kind of inescapable combat situation.
    I agree with you. I don't personally think I can or can't. It comes down to a combination of skill, attention to the moment, and luck. If I could get out of threatening situation without a confrontation, then why wouldn't I do that?
  6. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:05pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    You do not understand the body dynamics that are at play in Aikido, you are taking advantage of certain inherent weaknesses in human anatomy. The other person has no choice but to go along with what you are doing, either because you have taken their center of gravity and are manipulating that, or you have executed a joint lock of some type.

    Are you saying that it is impractical to try to develop any method what-so-ever for facing multiple opponents simultaneously and that training methods for facing multiple opponents do not exist? Those fella's attacking him are blackbelt's, not schmoes off the street. Even if their objective was to grab him and detain him, rather than to cause serious bodily injury, can you honestly say that what he did was not an incredible expression of martial skill?

    They can't pin him down, they can't grab him, and they keep getting put in positions (intentionally by Shioda) where they are stumbling over each other. He positions himself so he can face them one or two at a time. That is astonishing!
    No it is a demo. Yes he can be taken down, pinned, or knocked around BASED on those videos. I have no idea about his skill otherwise. His demo partners might not have a clue on how to take someone down but many people certainly do. Even wrist locks can be countered. Try this exercise: have your partner grab your wrist. Execute a wrist lock. Instruct them to try to point their fingers to their solar plexus with the hand they grabbed with and bring the hand in to the chest while doing this as soon as you start the wrist lock. Have them use their free hand to punch towards your nose. See how many times you submit them.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:07pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh and let me add you are Utterly WRONG about XIngyi. It is one of the most LINEAR CMAs, probably more so than Baji,out in the world. It is only trained by poor teachers as a multiple opponent art. That goes for Tai Chi, which is a clinch and throw art, as well. Stick to what you know not what you heard.
  8. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:07pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    I understand what you are saying, and I can see that. But I'm a bit lost about what we are debating. Obviously, one highly trained Shou Shu or Aikido person could not take out two or three opponents of equal skill, unless it was by pure luck.

    The claim of multiple opponents is, generally, against multiple opponents of less skill than yourself. Otherwise, what are we claiming? That one of our fifth degree blackbelts could defeat 2, 3, 4, 8, or 10 of our other fifth degree blackbelts? That's ridiculous.
    Another Strawman. How about one fifth degree black belt vs 5 varsity football players in a parking lot who all legitimately want to hurt them? Or 5 drunk idiots at a bar? or 5 Tweaked out meth-heads in an alley?
  9. Beginners Mind

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:07pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    I am familiar with the affiliate dojo in Atlanta, GA because my sister in law asked me about it for her boys. If they are an indication of what you do in your school then I'm sorry but I think you are not doing things much different than most other Aikido dojos. Meaning that if you ever put it to a test and try use Aikido against real attacks and committed attackers it is not going to go the way you think. It definitely won't look like Shioda's demo.
    The head instructor here at the Charleston school works as a bouncer in downtown Charleston. I have never seen him breakup a conflict or throw anyone out, but he has a reputation that precedes him where he works. People don't start conflicts simply because he is there and they know they probably won't win.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 12:10pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    The head instructor here at the Charleston school works as a bouncer in downtown Charleston. I have never seen him breakup a conflict or throw anyone out, but he has a reputation that precedes him where he works. People don't start conflicts simply because he is there and they know they probably won't win.
    You and about 10 others are lucky I can't ban for the "Bouncer" appeal to authority. I am so tired of this bullshit argument.


    I worked security with a weightlifter, who had zero training, and his reputation of strength preceded him. Yes, neither of our examples prove anything.
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