Shou Shu; any redeeming factors?

***jnp*** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:44am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

You do not understand the body dynamics that are at play in Aikido, snip

Are you sure about that? Do you know me, or did you just make a huge assumption?

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

Are you saying that it is impractical to try to develop any method what-so-ever for facing multiple opponents simultaneously and that training methods for facing multiple opponents do not exist? Those fella's attacking him are blackbelt's, not schmoes off the street. Even if their objective was to grab him and detain him, rather than to cause serious bodily injury, can you honestly say that what he did was not an incredible expression of martial skill?

They can't pin him down, they can't grab him, and they keep getting put in positions (intentionally by Shioda) where they are stumbling over each other. He positions himself so he can face them one or two at a time. That is astonishing!

How did you get all this from two members saying your video example is compliant in nature? I'm perplexed as the two discussions don't seem related. No I wasn't claiming there is no such thing as training against multiple attackers.

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

(chuckles)

All you can do is prepare for the possible contingencies ahead of time and then remain focused on what is happening during a confrontation. It comes down to a combination of skill and luck whether or not you win any fight - of any kind - on a given day.

Personally, I have no aspiration to beat up anyone, much less a group of people. None-the-less, I will prepare for that contingency according to the tradition of my school.

No one objected to you training where you want to train. People object to your perception about how effective you think your training is from a self defense perspective.

**Zerstörer90** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:44am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

1. What if you can't run away? For instance, on the ancient battlefields of India, China, and Japan. Or, at the back of a bar or club with only one entrance. Or, in a bathroom. Or, with your back against a wall where two, three, or four people are blocking your path? This kind of training is necessary and practical.

Lol just pointing this out....

2. Which situation? We are discussing the practicality of attacking multiple people at once.

You were discussing, initially, the practicality of preemptively attacking multiple victims before they attack you (i.e. before you had any reason to attack them).
You then changed the circumstances to 3 people approaching you in a threatening manner, which quickly turned to 2 people, then to one. Which completely removed it's relevance in the purposes of multiple attackers. Even if it hadn't, it's still vastly difference from a preemptive attack on two unsuspecting people your delusional self is considering a "threat".

inb4 I'm not delusional!

Or, at the back of a bar or club with only one entrance. Or, in a bathroom. Or, with your back against a wall where two, three, or four people are blocking your path?

You are the Dr. Seuss of delusion and paranoia.

Beginners Mind · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:46am

Originally Posted by Zerstörer90

They can do all of those things. They are being bumbling idiots as an act, and you are the fool who fell for it. I was an uchi deshi in my dojo. I did the same thing. Demonstration after demonstration. I even remember my Sensei taught us how to attack in such a way that it would make throwing easier (i.e. Overextending, attacking off balance, "taking your own fall").

It isn't like that in all studios. In some studios, if you don't defend yourself against your Randori partners, you get your butt handed to you. It was like that in my studio.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:47am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

You don't have a choice but to do what they force you to do. Once they take your center of gravity or get a joint lock, its over.

BULLSHIT. I know this because I actually stepped outside the uke role and actual became an attacker. It didn't go that way at all. I even did it against a high level Aikikai sensei to see if he could actually handle a real attack and not the overextended ones we did in practice. Did go well for him. I wasn't trying to embarrass him but he couldn't handle any real attacks.

**Fuzzy** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:47am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

You don't have a choice but to do what they force you to do. Once they take your center of gravity or get a joint lock, its over.

Think for a minute about how he's getting those joint locks, the Ukes are giving him over-committed attacks and basically handing him their joints.

They're probably so used to doing it now that they don't even realise its happening. (I know because it happened to me. I STILL have times where I automatically fall down as soon as someone slaps a lock on me)

**Gezere** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:48am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

It isn't like that in all studios. In some studios, if you don't defend yourself against your Randori partners, you get your butt handed to you. It was like that in my studio.

Where is your studio. We get claims that peoples studios is doing it different all the time and when it is actually tested it turns out the weren't.

Beginners Mind · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:50am

Originally Posted by Zerstörer90

inb4 I'm not delusional!
You are the Dr. Seuss of delusion and paranoia.

I'm not going to get into a name calling match with you.
The point stands that situations occasionally arise where you
cannot talk you way out, walk, or run away.

Beginners Mind · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:51am

http://www.suenaka.com/

But I no longer study there, I'm focusing on Shou Shu.

**Zerstörer90** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:52am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

It isn't like that in all studios. In some studios, if you don't defend yourself against your Randori partners, you get your butt handed to you. It was like that in my studio.

Strawman much? I didn't say you don't defend yourself against them. Even ineffective attacks work against a someone letting you attack them.

**Fuzzy** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 11:56am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

It isn't like that in all studios. In some studios, if you don't defend yourself against your Randori partners, you get your butt handed to you. It was like that in my studio.

I'm pretty sure I know the kind of Aikido you're talking about, where your Uke attacks you at full power with full commitment, and will connect if you don't move.

HOWEVER, this is still not live training, because of two things:

1) The attacks are designed to put Uke at a disadvantage, assuming Nage/Tori has even the vaguest idea of what he's doing.

2) Once the first attack is dealt with Uke surrenders, there's no followup attacks or any attempt to regain balance.

Why does this happen?

1) Ukes are taught from day 1 to ATTACK WITH COMMITMENT! and reprimanded for holding back, this teaches them the "correct" way to attack for this type of scenario.

2) Ukes are warned from day 1 NOT to resist at all, because of the deadly danger of the techniques (this is sometimes helped along by beating on a student who looks like he's going to try to resist)