Shou Shu; any redeeming factors?

Beginners Mind · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:13am

"Those videos seem to demonstrate the importance of learning how to properly fight one person with solid techniques you can practice 100% against a fully resisting opponent.
Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104701&p=2707975#1Fko83tLxv3UzgSJ .99"

Right from the beginning 19 out of 20 techniques you learn are one-on-one reactions, the only technique you learn for multiple opponents in the beginning is called Three Hands of China. Three Hands is geared towards attacking two people who are standing to the left and right of you who are showing aggressive behavior, but have not yet attacked you.

As you move up in the ranks, you get trained in more techniques that involve two, three, or four opponents. You also get trained in moving smoothly from one-on-one technique to one-on-one technique, thereby increasing your ability to attack opponents without getting jammed up on one person. Also, you are trained how to maneuver through groups of people in such a way that you put bodies between you and the other opponents you are fighting.

As a small example, watch this:

Strategic positioning.

**huge** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:20am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

Three Hands is geared towards attacking two people who are standing to the left and right of you who are showing aggressive behavior, but have not yet attacked you.

I'm no law guy, but this sounds like assault.

If you're surrounded by people you feel are being aggressive to the point where you're considering attacking, maybe you should just leave.

Beginners Mind · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:27am

The youtube description for the Aikido "randori" video reads:

aikido randori ryokukai dojo practice uke complying with nage
Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...3tLxv3UzgSJ.99

Do some research. Randori would be pointless if the opponents just did what you wanted them to do. Watch closely, those people are getting tossed wherever the Aikidoka wants them to go. If you search youtube for more Randori, you will find videos which show highly resistant opponents being tossed around like children.

Heres a great one. Gozo Shioda:

**Chili Pepper** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:27am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

As a small example, watch this:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150464833907557
Strategic positioning.

Link didn't work for me.

**Chili Pepper** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:38am

And, still waiting to see a video of a Shou Shu practitioner free sparring against multiple opponents.

Hell, at this point, I'd be happy to see just one-on-one sparring.

Beginners Mind · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:39am

I'm no law guy, but this sounds like assault.

If you're surrounded by people you feel are being aggressive to the point where you're considering attacking, maybe you should just leave.
Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...3tLxv3UzgSJ.99

If two people are verbally threatening you and you can just walk away... do so. If you can't walk away without a fight, then what? When I was in college, three guys jumped out of a car and wanted to fight me at 2:30 in the morning when I was on my way home from work. Walking away meant probably getting hit on the back of the head and beaten helplessly. Hopefully you have trained yourself to be comfortable attacking and being attacked by more than one person, if you find yourself in a situation like this.

This memory sticks out to me in particular because, when I started to talk them down, one guy got back in the car and the other two continued to talk trash. They stood with the exact body positioning I had trained to defend against using Three Hands. Rather than blast the remaining two guys, I continued to talk them down. Finally, another guy got back in the car and the last guy attacked me. I ducked down and waited for a gap in his wild swings, uppercut to his jaw and it was over. I walked away.

In any case, I see the practical value in training in various techniques that deal with multiple people at once. It's not that rare a circumstance that you will be confronted by more than one person on the street.

**huge** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:43am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

If two people are verbally threatening you and you can just walk away... do so. If you can't walk away without a fight, then what? When I was in college, three guys jumped out of a car and wanted to fight me at 2:30 in the morning when I was on my way home from work. Walking away meant probably getting hit on the back of the head and beaten helplessly. Hopefully you have trained yourself to be comfortable attacking and being attacked by more than one person, if you find yourself in a situation like this.

This memory sticks out to me in particular because, when I started to talk them down, one guy got back in the car and the other two continued to talk trash. They stood with the exact body positioning I had trained to defend against using Three Hands. Rather than blast the remaining two guys, I continued to talk them down. Finally, another guy got back in the car and the last guy attacked me. I ducked down and waited for a gap in his wild swings, uppercut to his jaw and it was over. I walked away.

In any case, I see the practical value in training in various techniques that deal with multiple people at once. It's not that rare a circumstance that you will be confronted by more than one person on the street.

1. Run away, don't walk away.

2. This is a different situation than what was initially described.

EDIT:
To clarify:

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

Three Hands is geared towards attacking two people who are standing to the left and right of you who are showing aggressive behavior, but have not yet attacked you.

Emphasis mine.

***jnp*** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:50am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

Heres a great one. Gozo Shioda:

This is in no way a valid example of a successful multiples vs 1 defense. All of Mr. Shioda's uke are compliant. None of them are fully resisting. At 1:09 his uke flips around him after Mr. Shioda barely touches him.

Demonstrations do not count as evidence due to the fact that the uke are always cooperative with the instructor.

**mike321** · Posted On: 7/23/2012 10:51am

Originally Posted by Beginners Mind

Do some research. Randori would be pointless if the opponents just did what you wanted them to do. Watch closely, those people are getting tossed wherever the Aikidoka wants them to go. If you search youtube for more Randori, you will find videos which show highly resistant opponents being tossed around like children.

Heres a great one. Gozo Shioda:

This is a compliant video. Those guys are attacking full speed, possibly full strength, but they are limiting the attacks to what will work for the defender.