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  1. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 6:26pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    You don't use the natural reactions of the human body to your advantage in your arts?
    The point is that you don't. You are using choreographed, assumed reactions from a compliant partner. Not natural or trained reactions from an nonresistant opponent who is trying to cause you harm.

    I accidentally kicked my partner in the groin during sparring on Friday when going for an inside leg kick. Did he just stand in place, legs straight, bending at the waist pointing his head towards me? nope. In fact, outside of compliant JJJ drills I've never seen a 'natural reaction' from a nut shot like this. /ANECDOTE]

    But your assumptions around what is a "natural reaction", which is the basis for a lot of your moves by the sounds, is just one part of why you fail.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  2. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 6:28pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did you really had to explain it to him?
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 6:31pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He's hoping the 10th time is the charm.
  4. mike321 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 6:41pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have studied quite a bit of these "reactions". They are part of a lot of kenpo technique. You can not trust them the way you need to because you can't test them. A small percentage I could test in sparring and surprise they worked! But they only worked after I practiced them in sparring. One I developed quite nicely, after getting hit in the head a lot!
  5. Beginners Mind

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 7:17pm


     

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    So, when you kick a guy full force in the groin... He just stands there and laughs?

    :friends:
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Which is why you are being aske to prove your claims.
    I even said so in my other post.
    Try to keep up.

    No it's not.
    It's a simple question.
    This thread is about SS, not any other arts.
    Don't change the subject.
    Bear in mind, we have many, many techniques against various types of attacks. I'm choosing this example because its filled with goodies. This is a crane technique: Advancing daggers:

    The opponent is coming in with a double handed push.
    As you bend your knees into a very small horse stance, rooting your weight into the floor, subtly shifting your weight towards the opponent and onto the right foot, and turning your hips all the way to the right, your hands come up through your center-line. Turn the backs of the hands almost towards each other so the wrists are loaded and keep the elbows nearly touching. The arms pop open to a little larger than shoulder distance - elbows at the level of your eyebrow - wrists unloading and snapping outwards and upwards. This opens the opponents arms in front of you. The hips are now loaded to the right and the weight is on the right foot.

    Stepping slightly past the opponent at a 45 degree angle utilizing a hard bow stance with the left foot forwards (straight back leg, bent front leg), gravity wants to pull both hands downwards. So, you let gravity, your loaded hip, and your change of stance pull the right hand down to a crane chop on the floating rib. The bone alignment runs from the bones of the right wrist to the heel of the back leg. The left hand falls to the center of your chest and re-loads by twisting to palm upwards position at the level of you collar bones.

    The left hand unloads and the left hip unloads, continuing to shift the weight towards the opponent slightly while transitioning to a horse stance. Strike the throat with the left hand chop. Shifting your weight onto the neck of the opponent causes them to bend slightly backwards. The left hand is extended out the side center-line - elbow down - creating bone alignment which runs from the bones in the wrist to the heel of the back leg. The right hand returns and forms a cover-hand momentarily. The right hip is now re-loaded.

    The right hand then executes a side fist to the solar plexus, while shifting even further into the opponent and unloading the right hip into another hard bow stance. Keeping the right elbow facing downwards, the bone alignment runs from the knuckles of the right hand to the heel of the back foot. The left hand moves from the throat to the shoulder or shirt of the opponent, grabbing them. Shifting the weight onto the opponents solar plexus - combined with the pain - has a tendency to bring the opponents body into a slightly forward bending position.

    From this position, the right knee follows the momentum of the punch and performs a knee lift strike to the groin, the right hand follows the momentum of the knee lift and strikes the jaw of the opponent using a heel palm, and the left hand pulls the opponent towards the kneelift-heelpalm. Jamming the head backwards and to the left (the opponents left), bring your leg around the opponent's right side and kick out whichever leg is available while throwing the opponent down. Bend the supporting leg so you do not fall over.

    Bouncing off the motion of throwing him down, come back into a crane stance with the right leg and stomp the forehead, scalping the opponent and ending up in a cross stance. As your stomp the opponents head, punch downwards to your opponents face through your right center-line using the weight of your body to reinforce the blow.

    These movements are executed in one smooth and flowing fashion. Once you can do them with the stances, then you are taught to do them with a floating foot. This means that your front foot (the left foot) never touches the ground while you are executing the technique, but you are still "floating through the stances" Horse, hardbow, horse, hardbow.
  6. Beginners Mind

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 7:18pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    So, when you kick a guy full force in the groin... He just stands there and laughs?

    :friends:
    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    I have studied quite a bit of these "reactions". They are part of a lot of kenpo technique. You can not trust them the way you need to because you can't test them. A small percentage I could test in sparring and surprise they worked! But they only worked after I practiced them in sparring. One I developed quite nicely, after getting hit in the head a lot!
    Ah finally, one person agrees with a single point.
    Thank you, sir.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 7:22pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    Ah finally, one person agrees with a single point.
    Thank you, sir.
    No, he really does not.
  8. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 7:24pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefron View Post
    Did you really had to explain it to him?
    He's hoping the 10th time is the charm.
    Wishful thinking in the end.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  9. Beginners Mind

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 7:25pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    The point is that you don't. You are using choreographed, assumed reactions from a compliant partner. Not natural or trained reactions from an nonresistant opponent who is trying to cause you harm.

    I accidentally kicked my partner in the groin during sparring on Friday when going for an inside leg kick. Did he just stand in place, legs straight, bending at the waist pointing his head towards me? nope. In fact, outside of compliant JJJ drills I've never seen a 'natural reaction' from a nut shot like this. /ANECDOTE]

    But your assumptions around what is a "natural reaction", which is the basis for a lot of your moves by the sounds, is just one part of why you fail.
    There are a good chunk of techniques that involve striking pressure points, glands, and other sensitive areas, but there are also plenty of techniques which do not rely on those built-in reactions. Some do and some do not. I suppose I could go through the process of writing out another long elaborate technique description, or you could just take my word for it.
  10. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2012 7:28pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beginners Mind View Post
    Bear in mind, we have many, many techniques against various types of attacks. I'm choosing this example because its filled with goodies. This is a crane technique: Advancing daggers:

    The opponent is coming in with a double handed push.
    As you bend your knees into a very small horse stance, rooting your weight into the floor, subtly shifting your weight towards the opponent and onto the right foot, and turning your hips all the way to the right, your hands come up through your center-line. Turn the backs of the hands almost towards each other so the wrists are loaded and keep the elbows nearly touching. The arms pop open to a little larger than shoulder distance - elbows at the level of your eyebrow - wrists unloading and snapping outwards and upwards. This opens the opponents arms in front of you. The hips are now loaded to the right and the weight is on the right foot.

    Stepping slightly past the opponent at a 45 degree angle utilizing a hard bow stance with the left foot forwards (straight back leg, bent front leg), gravity wants to pull both hands downwards. So, you let gravity, your loaded hip, and your change of stance pull the right hand down to a crane chop on the floating rib. The bone alignment runs from the bones of the right wrist to the heel of the back leg. The left hand falls to the center of your chest and re-loads by twisting to palm upwards position at the level of you collar bones.

    The left hand unloads and the left hip unloads, continuing to shift the weight towards the opponent slightly while transitioning to a horse stance. Strike the throat with the left hand chop. Shifting your weight onto the neck of the opponent causes them to bend slightly backwards. The left hand is extended out the side center-line - elbow down - creating bone alignment which runs from the bones in the wrist to the heel of the back leg. The right hand returns and forms a cover-hand momentarily. The right hip is now re-loaded.

    The right hand then executes a side fist to the solar plexus, while shifting even further into the opponent and unloading the right hip into another hard bow stance. Keeping the right elbow facing downwards, the bone alignment runs from the knuckles of the right hand to the heel of the back foot. The left hand moves from the throat to the shoulder or shirt of the opponent, grabbing them. Shifting the weight onto the opponents solar plexus - combined with the pain - has a tendency to bring the opponents body into a slightly forward bending position.

    From this position, the right knee follows the momentum of the punch and performs a knee lift strike to the groin, the right hand follows the momentum of the knee lift and strikes the jaw of the opponent using a heel palm, and the left hand pulls the opponent towards the kneelift-heelpalm. Jamming the head backwards and to the left (the opponents left), bring your leg around the opponent's right side and kick out whichever leg is available while throwing the opponent down. Bend the supporting leg so you do not fall over.

    Bouncing off the motion of throwing him down, come back into a crane stance with the right leg and stomp the forehead, scalping the opponent and ending up in a cross stance. As your stomp the opponents head, punch downwards to your opponents face through your right center-line using the weight of your body to reinforce the blow.

    These movements are executed in one smooth and flowing fashion. Once you can do them with the stances, then you are taught to do them with a floating foot. This means that your front foot (the left foot) never touches the ground while you are executing the technique, but you are still "floating through the stances" Horse, hardbow, horse, hardbow.
    All the while, your compliant partner does not move, block, resist or counter attack, being too bewildered by the initial attack to realise what is happening I suppose.......
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.

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