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  1. Outis is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 1:13pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Tai Otoshi Question

    I got a little introduction to Judo some time ago, had to lay out a while, and now I'm getting back into it. I'm hoping some of the Judo folks can help me with a question about the throw called tai otoshi. I'm assuming tori has standard grip, right hand on uke's left lapel, left hand on uke's right sleeve.

    The first time I was taught the throw, I was told not to plant the extended right foot after the turn in; the second time around with a different sensei, I was told to plant the right foot firmly and thrust off with it to help complete the throw.

    Are these seemingly contradictory instructions simply variations of the same throw? In other words, as long as the "body drop" is successfully executed as a te waza, does it really matter whether the right foot was planted or not?

    Thanks.
  2. Aaron_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 1:40pm


     Style: Judo/Stronglifts

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    I've seen tai otoshi taught with the right and left legs ending up in line with each other, weight distributed evenly to each foot and the hands actually doing the throw.

    I've also seen it taught with the legs ending up looking closer to seio toshi when the throw is completed.

    However, I am definitely not any sort of authority on technique for judo. However, there are people on this forum (judoka_uk, BKR, ect) who are very knowledgeable about the sport, and I know that judoka_uk has written some great articles discussing fundamentals of judo.

    If you use the search tool you should be able to find some of these articles, or you can just go to his blog, I believe it's called the difficult way. Hope this helps.
  3. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 2:02pm


     Style: Judo

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    This is how a tai-otoshi should go.



    I would be curious to see how the first instructor you spoke to would have demonstrated it.

  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 2:14pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    I got a little introduction to Judo some time ago, had to lay out a while, and now I'm getting back into it. I'm hoping some of the Judo folks can help me with a question about the throw called tai otoshi. I'm assuming tori has standard grip, right hand on uke's left lapel, left hand on uke's right sleeve.

    The first time I was taught the throw, I was told not to plant the extended right foot after the turn in; the second time around with a different sensei, I was told to plant the right foot firmly and thrust off with it to help complete the throw.

    Are these seemingly contradictory instructions simply variations of the same throw? In other words, as long as the "body drop" is successfully executed as a te waza, does it really matter whether the right foot was planted or not?

    Thanks.
    Not 100% sure I understand the question. I think this is a question of weight distribution between the out-stretched leg and the bent leg.

    There are two main schools of thought regarding weight distribution. I call them the 'Adams school' and the 'Japanese school'. However, there is a constant between the two and indeed all good Tai otoshis. That you should never have the majority of your weight on your bent leg i.e for a right hander the left leg.

    If the meaning of 'don't plant your outstretched leg' is that you should have the majority of your weight on the bent/left leg. Then I'm afraid that person is misinformed.

    In the 'Adams school' weight is distributed evenly between the legs.



    In the 'Japanese school' weight is distributed with the majority on the outstretched leg



    A lot of problems with Tai otoshi which people try to fix with the legs actually stem from the arms. Often people will improperly perform tsurikomi, which leads to improperly applied kuzushi which combines with a failure to continue the kuzushi motion properly.

    This results in the hands falling behind the head, stress and pain in the shoulder and elbow joints and cocked up weight distribution which usually sees uke loaded onto tori's hip.

    Like so:



    Tori has let his hikite(sleeve) hand drop and his tsurite(lapel) fall behind his head.



    The result is uke is stuck on the hip, balance un broken and tori's balance and posture broken.



    You want to have seperation, uke's balance clearly broken and good balance and posture on your part, like so



    Video explanations of the 'Japanese School':



    The 'Adams School'



    Does that answer your question?

    EDIT:
    Mas posted whilst I was still typing. Mas aren't you dan grade? It would be nice to see guys like you posting more. It kind of feels like a 1 man or two man band on Judo around here. Always good to have different perspectives.

    Aaron_ thanks for the compliments.

    The blog is The Difficult Way and can be also accessed through my signature picture, unless I cocked up the linking.
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 3/03/2011 2:19pm at .
  5. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 2:36pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hey UK,

    Yes I am dan grade, but you oftentimes say what I was going to say before I say it. If I were to comment on the your post, the only thing I would do is nod my head vigorously.

    TBH I didn't understand the OP's description of the first tai-otoshi he was asking about. I am hoping it's the difference between the "Adams" style and the "Japanese" style like you suggested.

    I have seen enough poorly instructed tai-otoshi to think otherwise though... the horror...

  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 7:08pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas View Post
    Hey UK,

    Yes I am dan grade, but you oftentimes say what I was going to say before I say it. If I were to comment on the your post, the only thing I would do is nod my head vigorously.

    TBH I didn't understand the OP's description of the first tai-otoshi he was asking about. I am hoping it's the difference between the "Adams" style and the "Japanese" style like you suggested.

    I have seen enough poorly instructed tai-otoshi to think otherwise though... the horror...
    Lol, cheers. Would be nice to have more people agreeing with me though and telling me I'm special, lol.

    Like you I didn't really get it either my best guess is that he's trying to get the OP to weight the bent leg rather than the outstreched leg, which is obviously a big no no.

    I think Tai otoshi is one the consistently worst taught techniques in the whole of Judo.
  7. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 8:31pm


     Style: Judo

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    I totally agree with you on that, however the #1 worst taught technique is:

    Hane-goshi.



    I don't mean to badmouth, but this type of thing makes me cry.

    I have had to sit through some plain silly hane-goshi instruction, usually from visiting instructors.

  8. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 10:06pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Lol, cheers. Would be nice to have more people agreeing with me though and telling me I'm special, lol.

    Like you I didn't really get it either my best guess is that he's trying to get the OP to weight the bent leg rather than the outstreched leg, which is obviously a big no no.

    I think Tai otoshi is one the consistently worst taught techniques in the whole of Judo.
    I think that there is what I call an "old fashioned" way to do Tai Otoshi that has been passed down over the decades. The one where the majority of weight is on the "bent leg" as opposed to 50-50 or more weighted to the outside leg. In fact, I learned Tai Otoshi the "old fashioned way", and NEVER had it explained any differently for many years. Thus my Tai Otoshi sucked.

    They guys in my current club learned Judo from a guy who learned Judo right after WW2 in Belgium. They do lots of old fashioned looking Judo, including Tai Otoshi. Or I should say they did, I've about broken them of most of the old and pretty much useless habits. You know,heels together knees bent, exagerated pulling up on uke, backing under uke while doing a forward throw, etc.
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  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 10:09pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas View Post
    I totally agree with you on that, however the #1 worst taught technique is:

    Hane-goshi.



    I don't mean to badmouth, but this type of thing makes me cry.

    I have had to sit through some plain silly hane-goshi instruction, usually from visiting instructors.
    That is so bad it makes baby jesus cry.

    What a nice facility, though.
  10. herbo1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2011 6:56am


     Style: Judo

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    Question regarding tai otoshi weight balancing;

    Would adopted the Adams 50/50 style make you less susceptible to a ko soto gari counter if uke is able to step over the straight leg?
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