Can we all just come to an agreement about Krav Maga?

**Himura** · Posted On: 2/28/2011 11:38pm

Well, I'm 22 years old. I had my first firearm at the age of 5 where my dad former Army (6 years) taught me how to shoot. I was also on my high school shooting team. I'd probably be competing as an amateur right now if I had the money to do so. That is one expensive hobby, and I'm pretty poor.

As for my specific complaints about the video I noticed that he turns the pistol to the side in order to pull back the slide, he drops to the ground on the reload for no apparent reason, he also pulls the handgun back towards his body on the reload.

You don't need to turn your handgun gangsta style in order to pull the slide back. He could have left it vertical and not took the time to turn it to the side then back vertical before aiming again. Keeping it vertical can save time on the movement and on aiming since you are still pointing at the target.

The same goes for that bringing the gun in close to the body and squatting down bit. He had the ability to speed reload that clip. Had he kept the pistol on target grabbed the clip with his left had and slammed it back in he could have been pumping more rounds into the targets instead of wasting time. He also took his eyes off target, turned the pistol to the side, and watched as he loaded the clip. You don't need to do any of that stuff especially taking your eyes off target. I mean every time he brings the gun in and take his eyes off target to watch the reload.

That is horrible training. There are some other things that I could nitpick on such as the location of the clips on the belt, but I feel that would be taking it too far. I just tried to hit on basic stuff. I mean yeah he seemed to take a bit too long on getting the clip out for the reload, but I don't expect someone training to be as smooth and practiced as people who have done it most of their lives, or people who do it for competition and/or hunting. It seems dangerous to allow someone who could end up using this training to develop bad habits like this though. Those few seconds could end up getting you or someone else killed.

**HereBeADragon** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 1:12am

Good points and I'd have to agree with most of them but to completely confirm or refute them it would help to know the context of those drills. Thats the problem with all these videos. There might be reasons for what is being done in the video that we are not aware of, it seems strange however that people who do use their weapons under fire regularly would not know how to use them correctly. Or it could simply be a trainee screwing up or a bad teacher, or all of the above. We are only seeing little bits of training and without a bigger picture its hard to tell whats going on. It would help a lot if we had some Israelis around here to clue us in on what Krav is in its motherland.

**gregaquaman** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 6:49am

I tend to lump Krav into the whole RBSD thing. Good addition to allready quality martial arts. That way you can allready punch kick and grapple. And then you learn de escalation use of force and all of those other things that might get missed in the martial arts you are doing.

This way boxers can krav like boxers. Wrestlers can krav like wrestlers and so on. But with a bit of a tactical shift.

Not good if you are not allready a quality fighter because it becomes very hard to tell the **** from clay.

**JudoA** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 7:32am

Originally Posted by Himura

Well, I'm 22 years old. I had my first firearm at the age of 5 where my dad former Army (6 years) taught me how to shoot. I was also on my high school shooting team. I'd probably be competing as an amateur right now if I had the money to do so. That is one expensive hobby, and I'm pretty poor.

As for my specific complaints about the video I noticed that he turns the pistol to the side in order to pull back the slide, he drops to the ground on the reload for no apparent reason, he also pulls the handgun back towards his body on the reload.

You don't need to turn your handgun gangsta style in order to pull the slide back. He could have left it vertical and not took the time to turn it to the side then back vertical before aiming again. Keeping it vertical can save time on the movement and on aiming since you are still pointing at the target.

The same goes for that bringing the gun in close to the body and squatting down bit. He had the ability to speed reload that clip. Had he kept the pistol on target grabbed the clip with his left had and slammed it back in he could have been pumping more rounds into the targets instead of wasting time. He also took his eyes off target, turned the pistol to the side, and watched as he loaded the clip. You don't need to do any of that stuff especially taking your eyes off target. I mean every time he brings the gun in and take his eyes off target to watch the reload.

That is horrible training. There are some other things that I could nitpick on such as the location of the clips on the belt, but I feel that would be taking it too far. I just tried to hit on basic stuff. I mean yeah he seemed to take a bit too long on getting the clip out for the reload, but I don't expect someone training to be as smooth and practiced as people who have done it most of their lives, or people who do it for competition and/or hunting. It seems dangerous to allow someone who could end up using this training to develop bad habits like this though. Those few seconds could end up getting you or someone else killed.

Not a firearm expert myself but shouldn't it be called a magazine instead of a clip

**Prince Vlad** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 8:41am

I do BJJ with Judo and cross train with Krav. I find it a solid bolt on style which fills in a lot of the blanks that I encountered in combat sports and TMA. Then again, I train in Europe with KMG (Eyal Yanilov's new group) which is probably very different to the type of Krav available in the US. Most of the Expert level guys in Europe have military backgrounds and they are the ones who do the gradings and seminars. My own instructor works in prison and there are other police, military and emergency response guys in the same class (as well as regular Joe's like myself). Just saying, I find it a very useful addition especially when it comes to sparring multiple attackers and 3rd party protection (eg wife and kids). So to answer the OP - no I don't agree that Krav is crap (although I agree that there are a ridiculous number of rip off merchants out there teaching Krav badly or even packaging their own crap off as Krav).

**Himura** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 3:53pm

Originally Posted by JudoA

Not a firearm expert myself but shouldn't it be called a magazine instead of a clip

Does it matter? It's like people who don't like you to call them guns. I don't really see the point if everyone knows what you are talking about then it should be fine. At least, that has always been my attitude. I know a lot of guys who get bent out of shape over stuff like that. I've heard that a lot in the past especially when I was on the shooting team. :)

I've had bad experiences with Krav in the US. I went to observe some classes of Krav awhile back and they seemed bad. Other than the pistol work, I think that video was a good example of Krav.

**Mario915** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 4:25pm

Well, sight picture can be important when using a rifle, however most agencies only practice with a pistol for target at 25-30 yds. He drops to the ground to simulate taking cover, that is the first thing most soldiers are taught. Take cover or die.

Also if a weapon runs out of ammuntion the slide locks to the rear, you dont need to charge again.

**Himura** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 5:06pm

The problem is that dropping, coming back up, and aiming takes more time and makes you a target longer than a speed reload would. If you actually had cover, you wouldn't be shooting like that anyway. Only the bare minimum needed to fire would be presented. Furthermore, I don't think he was simulating taking cover because later on in the video they simulate taking cover by having actual things to take cover behind on the range. I don't really buy what you are saying.

Nor does any of this actually explain the ridiculously sloppy reloading procedure. Bringing the pistol off target, turning it to the side, watching as you insert the mag, and then finally getting back on target and firing. He did this every time I saw him reload.

I just went searching youtube for some examples of what good instruction would be, and if you want to see some proper pistol techniques, watch Todd Jarrett videos. He has some amazing speed reloads and gives great advice on how to shoot properly. He's one of the best instructors that I've ever seen. He explains everything step by step. You can learn a lot just from watching his instructional videos. I kinda wish I would have known about them in high school.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 5:23pm

Competition shooting and Combat shooting two very different thing. I've never see a speed reload in combat and no one is worrying about that ****. Drop down behind cover (because you are either shooting over cover or around it) reload, reengage.
Also turning the gun sideways allows for a better grip on the slide. Not all guns are good for coming over the top (Jericho 941 for instance) you tend to not have that problem with the sideways grip. I agree he shouldn't take his eyes of the target (that wasn't Itay shooting btw) but nothing wrong with the sideways grip.

**Himura** · Posted On: 3/01/2011 7:06pm

Originally Posted by Gezere

Competition shooting and Combat shooting two very different thing. I've never see a speed reload in combat and no one is worrying about that ****. Drop down behind cover (because you are either shooting over cover or around it) reload, reengage.

Maybe, I didn't explain myself properly. I don't have a problem with dropping down or taking your time to reload if there is cover. My problem is that he did it during training without cover which wouldn't be a problem at all if there wasn't a training later in the video that showed him using actual cover. This lead me to believe that cover wasn't an issue when he ducked down to reload the first time since they actually had cover set up later on in the video.

Just to clarify for people, I don't advocate listening to professional shooters opinions on tactics all the time. A lot of the people I've met seem to think the weaver stance is a waste of time even though it is great for police officers as it goes perfectly with the field interview position (I believe that is what it is called). Obviously, in the real world, you wouldn't get into an ISO stance and stand out in the open using rapid fire and a speed reload unless you had absolutely no other alternative. That was the situation that I assumed they were training him for at the start of the video. Though, if I was ever in that situation, I'd probably drop to the ground and fire from there in an attempt to make my body as small as possible assuming I had time to do so.

As for the sideways grip, I've never fired a pistol that wasn't good for going over the top so I was unaware of that. Taking his eyes off the target to watch the mag when he inserted it was my biggest gripe though.