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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 7:16pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iainkelt View Post
    other unusual facts. Generally speaking (yes, there are some exceptions), company policies aren't really enforceable unless you can use them as a springboard to show that other employees were treated differently under similar circumstances, and that the reason for this difference is due to a protected classification. So, in short, even if the handbook says X, they can usually go ahead and do Y instead with no legal recourse.
    Since I brought up hand book I'm going to clarify since it seems like you misread my point. I agree with what you are saying and that was the point of my post.

    The HR Handbook is there to give you general rules and policies. My point was people are always surprised, like these employees, because they don't read the fine print. Yes, you can be fired for basically anything. Also, the CBA protects you in so much as getting your job back for wrongful termination. Even a CBA won't stop them from firing you because of the reasons you stated.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 3/03/2011 7:20pm at .
  2. Iainkelt is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2011 12:05am


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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Since I brought up hand book I'm going to clarify since it seems like you misread my point. I agree with what you are saying and that was the point of my post.

    The HR Handbook is there to give you general rules and policies. My point was people are always surprised, like these employees, because they don't read the fine print. Yes, you can be fired for basically anything. Also, the CBA protects you in so much as getting your job back for wrongful termination. Even a CBA won't stop them from firing you because of the reasons you stated.
    Totally agreed. I think I was just saying as a general rule that people often like to think of the HR handbook as some kind of immutable Ten Commandments, complete with the carved in stone bit. The reality is, of course, quite different when the company can generally throw it out the window at anytime. But I also think that you are entirely correct that people often don't bother to read the handbook and it's a poor idea. At least then you have some idea of what the procedure is supposed to look like, at least according to the company.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2011 12:21am

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    Yes. I tell them to read because the easiest way to fire someone is to use some of those general rules people ignore. One of my personal favorites is language and insubordination.
  4. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2011 2:02am

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    Quote Originally Posted by kitkatninja View Post
    Maybe, maybe not... It could have gone either way depending on his state of mind... Theft, inciting fear, mental anguish. Just how far away is bodily harm when you're pointing a loaded gun at someone?
    -ken
    I got in a big argument about this kind of thing with some friends a while back. The (former) friend whose house we were at was the kind of guy who liked to get drunk or high, put Braveheart on the big screen and run around the living room swinging a broad sword, **** like that. Once we were hanging out over there and he ended up pointing a knocked & drawn compound bow & broadhead at me (he was very drunk, mind you, with a look in his eye that made me quite uncomfortable). I acted like I blew it off, but the few guys that knew me well were looking at me like they couldn't believe I didn't rip his fucking head off as soon as that he relaxed the bow.
    Later that night he was in the kitchen while arguing with me about some inane BS and started brandishing a butcher knife with that same look in his eye. Concealed by the counter I reached into my bag & dropped the loaded magazine out of my Glock 30SF. As he came around the counter towards me, still whipping the knife around, I pulled my pistol and pointed it right at his face. As he realized what was going on I told him to put the fucking knife down & **** off. He put the knife down and stormed off and I reloaded the gun while one of my close buddies watched & laughed about the gun not even being loaded.
    Later it came up again, a few people had gotten upset about me pulling a gun on him when he was fucking around with that knife and coming at me. Luckily a few of my closer friends said,"Yeah, well **** pointed that bow & arrow at him, you didn't say anything about that! WTF???" & then my buddy chimed in and said,"Yeah, & the gun wasn't even loaded, I watched Jim reload it afterward." Funny, the idiots were still highly disturbed by my unloaded gun but they somehow weren't threatened by the bow. Ignorant liberal bitches....

    See, the thing is all about intent. Was the Walmart shoplifter's gun loaded? with a drawn hammer? Ready to fire? & pressed against the body of an employee? If so, the gun was ready to shoot someone and therefore HE was ready to shoot someone. He may not have wanted to shoot anyone, he may not have wanted to steal anything, he may not even like Walmart, but what's important is what he did, what situation he voluntarily placed himself in, and what he was PREPARED TO DO. Not what he wanted or didn't want to do.
    There have been plenty of robberies and carjackings where the crooks say,"Just do what we say & everyone will be fine." Hell, 9/11 was just like that too. Well, allegedly. How many people have complied with car-jackers, been driven out to a remote location and killed? How many employees have been taken into a back room, told that they'll be fine if they just go in the back room and don't interfere with the robbery, and are later killed? It happens.
    I've been robbed at gunpoint while at work. At one point I realized the gun wasn't loaded (when the robber pulled the slide back for effect FOR THE SECOND TIME.) I looked at the gun again & then looked the guy in the eye, a real meaningful look and told him it was about time he'd leave. He did. & when I told the guy next too me he was enraged that I didn't jump all over the guy. I replied,"Why? We're insured. I'm not getting sued and fired for putting the guy through a plate glass window or something."
    Protecting the corporation, loss prevention or from a law suit, that's one thing. But if a lone robber puts a pistol to my body & cocks the hammer, I'm not going to trust his word that he "doesn't want to do it", for the very reason that his actions are in direct contradiction. That's like a drunk driver saying "I didn't mean to kill anyone." I'm going to do everything in my power to put him through the fucking floor because my life trumps the interests of the corporation that I work for. I believe that grabbing someone and putting a loaded and cocked gun to their body is almost kidnapping, practically a hostage situation.
    Depending on the lawyer these guys get, they could most definitely have a case against Walmao.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
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  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2011 2:24am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Fixed.
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2011 2:34am

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Fixed.
    Funny, I've read all your posts in this thread, cock breath.
    Oh well, I had a good point anyways, I'm sure it would have been lost on you.

    ***Edit: Oh, wait. You've averaged 302.1 posts PER DAY since you got here. You're one of "those". Your Fix counts for exactly ****.***
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2011 8:17am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    ***Edit: Oh, wait. You've averaged 302.1 posts PER DAY since you got here. You're one of "those". Your Fix counts for exactly ****.***
    It's 10.4 ppd and falling, give me more time. I was incredibly sleep deprived when I chose to drop a tramp stamp joke about...nevermind. I was going to post a "Cool Story Bro" image but...nevermind. My mild case of Asberger's Syndrome is acting up.

    On to topic. You made a pretty concise point, and I agree that self defense TRUMPS corporate policy...but this statement bothered me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    That's like a drunk driver saying "I didn't mean to kill anyone." .
    Unless you really thought you were in danger, do you really think pointing a handgun at your friend's face was the proper adult thing to do? Even unloaded, or to prove a point?

    Anyway...**** Walmart.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 3/04/2011 8:46am at . Reason: Fuck Walmart.
  8. kitkatninja is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2011 7:41am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Iainkelt View Post
    ...The brutal reality of employment law is that, as noted above, generally speaking an employer is completely at liberty to fire someone for absolutely zero reason or for the most ridiculous reason you can think (they don't like you, think you're ugly, don't like your shoes, whatever). So long as the fired employees aren't covered by a CBA that requires certain procedures be followed or they aren't being targeted for elimination because of a legally protected characteristic (race, age if over 40, gender, national origin, and in some states sexual orientation etc) they have virtually no leg to stand on. ...
    Sounds harsh, I guess we're luckier on that aspect over here in the UK/EU.

    -Ken
  9. Tonuzaba is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2011 9:31am

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    ...Unless you really thought you were in danger, do you really think pointing a handgun at your friend's face was the proper adult thing to do? Even unloaded, or to prove a point?...
    A drunk person aiming on you with a compound bow or knife is a person a pussyhair's width away from causing serious injury or death.

    Pointing an unloaded weapon into their face to sober them up is a pretty adult thing IMO.

    And yes, f*ck Walmart very much.

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  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/06/2011 10:59am

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    Adult thing to do? We will disagree on this one. Pointing a gun, unloaded or not, at a person goes against everything most gun owners were taught. I understand what he was doing and it may have been good at making a point, but it has nothing to do with being or acting like an adult.

    Quite a few accidental shootings, that I personally know of, started with "But I thought it was unloaded." Yes, even when the person was sure they cleared a weapon. Dude I knew killed his 15 year old girlfriend being a jackass.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 3/06/2011 11:05am at .
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