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  1. _Aero_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 2:02am


     Style: Pekiti-Tirsia Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    no, they aren't. in those examples they are using BJJ and the plum clinch respectively.
    This is thinking concretely. The definition of trapping is to immobilize a part or parts of your opponent. So if the BJJ stylist or the Thai boxer are tying you up to setup the submission or knee strike, what are they doing? It's no different than a Wing Chunner utilizing a Pak-Sao hit; the stereotypical kung fu trapping It Is Fake was talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    if that's indeed what you're trying to say, then my response would be: maybe, but it's kind of a stretch, and you're trying to use examples from respected arts to legitimize sub-optimal training methods
    You think it is a stretch because you're thinking backwards on trapping techniques being used in styles other than Wing Chun or Kali. I merely used BJJ and MT as examples because those are the styles that most people see on TV, and therefore I can relate it a little better to recourse. This was the shortest video I could find showcasing what I wanted to show as an example. Skip over to 1:47 to see the trap. It's no different from a Wing Chunner using a Pak Sao to remove his opponent's defenses in order to score hits. No different at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    how much BJJ and MT have you done (and i'm not talking about stuff done in your JKD classes, i mean actually going to train at a full time MT or BJJ gym?
    I won't win the Abu Dhabi championships anytime soon, but I've trained enough in both arts to hold my own. However, I don't think one needs to train full time at a MT or BJJ gym in order to relate in an analogy of the concept of 'trapping' over the Internet.

    ;)
    Last edited by _Aero_; 2/19/2011 2:46am at .
  2. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 3:11am


     Style: MMA, Yoga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My problem with this is that you are using another martial art's pressure testing to validate your own drill. A professional boxer using a straight right does not validate the karate chambered punching drill because he did not learn the technique in this method. You know what does validate this drill? Kyokushin guys using straight rights.

    The best way to gain respect for a static trapping drill is to either show all the progressive steps between this static drill and alive application (steadily complex drills, aliveness, adding in strikes, etc) or to show the final stage of people applying this skill in a full contact situation WHO HAVE LEARNT IT USING THIS DRILL.

    I can show all these stages in the Muay Thai clinch to validate the initial static drill (which looks nothing like trapping drills i might add). Can you show me yours?

    P.S. I doubt you can hold your own in Muay Thai, you seem to think that the concept is what matters and not the training method.
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
    Kenny Weldon
  3. _Aero_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 2:08pm


     Style: Pekiti-Tirsia Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by recourse View Post
    Is there any trapping that isn't crap? I've never seen it pulled off when someone is going hard anyone got any video?
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You know you aren't in YMAS right? Oh and yes, you have seen trapping pulled off. Just like I tell everyone, stop looking at things from a chun or Kungfu choreographed perspective.
    Please take note of the highlighted text and I'll start from the beginning. This was what my use of the BJJ/MT examples was about. I was simply agreeing with what It Is Fake stated before my post. Nothing specific other than the use of 'trapping' was asked here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    My problem with this is that you are using another martial art's pressure testing to validate your own drill.
    My own drill? What drill? The Mantis trapping hands drill M.Dasrargo showcased here? That's not my drill, I'm afraid, but M.Dasrargo's. In either way, if you can point out where I made the bold claim of using the BJJ/MT examples to boast the effectiveness of the Mantis trapping drills, please point them out and I will clarify any misunderstanding. Again, I used the BJJ/MT examples to relate to recourse the use of trapping in general, as It Is Fake stated to him to not look at trapping from only a Chinese martial arts point of view. Sure, BJJ/MT guys don't exactly use Pak/Lop Sao terms, but they are using the idea. The idea being immobilization of their opponent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    P.S. I doubt you can hold your own in Muay Thai, you seem to think that the concept is what matters and not the training method.
    Well, JKD is more of a concepts than a system, so maybe that's where our different perspective lies. But believe what you will, I've gotten on the mats and in the ring to share my fair of bruises and cuts. Trapping is in BJJ/MT; you call it a Plum clinch I call it a double Lop-sao (grabbing hand), but at the end of the day we're both immobilizing our opponents to better attack them. Now, how you assume that I think that concept only matters and not the way you train it, is beyond me. JKD was built on training realistically and dynamically in every drill and in every range. I never stated that static training drills, be it trapping or boxing, could be made into effectiveness. Again, if you can find any evidence of me claiming this, I'll clear it up for you.

    Good day.
    Last edited by _Aero_; 2/19/2011 2:21pm at .
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 2:37pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't drag my comment into this it is a semantics argument. Trapping exists and it has been done well. This is where I disagree with Sang and Ming. Good trapping exists in other arts that is similar to and uses the same principles as good CMA drills.

    I do agree with their comments on people using legit trapping to validate poorly taught drills which are not warmups, but used and claimed as ways to fight.

    It's no different than a Wing Chunner utilizing a Pak-Sao hit; the stereotypical kung fu trapping It Is Fake was talking about.
    Yes, but not with the example you just used.
  5. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2011 11:52pm


     Style: MMA, Yoga

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Aero_ View Post
    . Sure, BJJ/MT guys don't exactly use Pak/Lop Sao terms, but they are using the idea. The idea being immobilization of their opponent.
    Argh I'm involved in a semantics argument, I feel dirty. You are the kind of guy who links Muay Thai fights in a JKD thread to prove that JKD striking works because they're both striking, am i right?

    I'm actually with you on this one IIF, I've been to a Kung Fu school which could effectively use their 'trapping' and consistently proves it in full contact fights. Much like my MT gym they can show the learning stages between their very basic initial static trapping drill to the full contact application of it. We have 3-4 of their guys fight on our Muay Thai shows every few months. What i wanted to see was the OP's progression from this static drill to its actual use.

    Edit: bah was trying to find their website, don't seem to have one - freestyle kung fu academy Brisbane.
    Last edited by Sang; 2/20/2011 12:16am at .
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
    Kenny Weldon
  6. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2011 12:33am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M.Dasargo View Post
    patty cake drills, much like forms, are designed to embody the cadence and principles of traditional fighting styles. They don't teach fighting.

    much like this doesn't teach fighting
    Actually that does teach fighting. Pummeling is a motion actually used in the clinch.


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  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2011 12:46am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    I'm actually with you on this one IIF, I've been to a Kung Fu school which could effectively use their 'trapping' and consistently proves it in full contact fights. Much like my MT gym they can show the learning stages between their very basic initial static trapping drill to the full contact application of it. We have 3-4 of their guys fight on our Muay Thai shows every few months. What i wanted to see was the OP's progression from this static drill to its actual use.
    This is the very important distinction missing form the thread and why I agree with most of what you and Ming said.
  8. _Aero_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2011 1:44am


     Style: Pekiti-Tirsia Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    Argh I'm involved in a semantics argument, I feel dirty. You are the kind of guy who links Muay Thai fights in a JKD thread to prove that JKD striking works because they're both striking, am i right?
    Yeah, semantics is such a dirty business. Who woulda thunk? And I'm just a simple guy who prefers to see things with an open mind. If you train it realistically and can apply it, then it's all good. Be it Thai Boxing or Godzilla Judo, it's okay. Take a breather. And 'JKD striking'? What's 'JKD striking'? Maybe you can enlighten the community on this type of particular striking? On second thought, never mind.
  9. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2011 2:25am


     Style: MMA, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why bother defining it, we'd just end up in another semantics argument. You and I would probably disagree on the definition of running. You should start a newbietown thread and introduce yourself, I think you'll find out pretty quickly that most people here actually agree with your statement above. The part people often find it hard to agree on is what constitutes "if you train it realistically".
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
    Kenny Weldon
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2011 4:04am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Aero_ View Post
    Yeah, semantics is such a dirty business. Who woulda thunk? And I'm just a simple guy who prefers to see things with an open mind. If you train it realistically and can apply it, then it's all good. Be it Thai Boxing or Godzilla Judo, it's okay. Take a breather. And 'JKD striking'? What's 'JKD striking'? Maybe you can enlighten the community on this type of particular striking? On second thought, never mind.
    If you really had an open mind you wouldn't be flipping out at some innocuous comments.
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