Jon Fitch gets in a Knife Fight

**DAYoung** · Posted On: 2/16/2011 9:08pm

Originally Posted by Gezere

I don't care how good you are with a knife. If I got your back you're dead. We do Shockknife fights often and I've used Judo and JJ to great effect doing it. In a real knife fight it saved my ass so I definitely can't discount it.

What, in particular, worked?

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 2/16/2011 10:18pm

Originally Posted by Lord Skeletor

I can say from experience that trying to use jiu-jitsu against a knifer is almost always a bad idea....unless you have no other choice. Guard, side control, rear mount, front mount---almost always leads to death or serious bodily injury against an experienced knifer.

The use of the term always leads me to believe that you know what you're talking about. Please give any evidence or example of your experiences of guard,side or rear/front mount control leading to death or serious bodily injury (always!). Your use of the phrasing "almost always" insinuates you are referring to more than one incidence of personal experience, please expand. How many knife vs. JJ fights have you to seen to draw this conclusion? How much experience do you have in jiu-jitsu? OR knife fighting for that matter? Just curious.

Originally Posted by Lord Skeletor

Oh...and in before the BJJ guys come in and say that they can armbar/choke the guy before he slashes/stabs their femorals, brachials, subclavian branch, carotid/jugular, hearts, lung into the middle of next week.

Your best defense against a knifer is a firearm---with plenty of distance and intermediate obstacles between you. I don't really see the harm in trying to practice defending yourself against a blade on the ground...but just don't be misled when it comes to your ability (and odds) of surviving such an attempt. I'm a big fan of the shock knife, by the way. :happy:

Damn! The strawman is strong with this one. Lets resort to the typical "gun is better than ___" defense. Situational awareness would do you better than a gun IMO, but if you're in a presumed knife fight chances are you didn't see it coming enough to draw your gun and load it.

**Punisher** · Posted On: 2/17/2011 12:05am

I liked the video, but I had a couple of observations the limited the overall "value" for me as a viewer.

First of all there were no strikes. It was strictly knife versus grappling. No big deal, but adding strikes does change things for both people. In my experience with weapon defense training, people do tend to be weapon focused, sometimes to the point that they leave dangerous openings to other attacks.

The other thing is whole object of the drill being the unarmed guy needing to disarm the guy with the knife. This changed how both people acted. Often times the unarmed guy was the aggressor, actively engaging the guy with the knife. Consequently the guy with the knife seemed to be more concerned with keeping the knife instead of killing the other guy.

Neither of things are really "wrong", but they are different from how I normally train weapon defenses. After watching the video I ended up thinking "that was cool", but didn't walk away any major revelation on unarmed vs. armed combat.

**wetware** · Posted On: 2/17/2011 1:18am

Originally Posted by Gezere

I don't care how good you are with a knife. If I got your back you're dead.

That seems like a dangerous level of overconfidence against someone who knows what they're doing with a knife. Hooks in, legs are getting cut. Hooks out, arms. I understand that you've had good results in the past, but it seems to me that's probably a combination of skill and good luck on your part and likely lack of skill on the part of your attacker. Obviously, I don't know the whole story and there's likely no way that I could. Even if you told us, that's only your point of view.

Now if you mean that they're going down and possibly dying due to your actions despite any injuries you might have received I can certainly believe that, but it doesn't keep you from succumbing to them later.

Originally Posted by Gezere

With that said yes I agree only use grappling if you have no other options but grappling with definitely help you out.

Now this I will certainly agree with from the limited training I've done with blades.

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

I was cut by someone with a knife before. I didn't know I was cut till after it was over. The scar is about 6 inches long and almost an inch wide in the middle. So it was a good cut. But he got jumped on, and I didn't have to fight him.

This right here is the one thing I don't like about the Shock Knife. I have not used one, but the sound and shocks give you indicators as to where it is, right? I can see that as a motivator to train hard, as if it actually is a live blade but as Diesel mentioned, he didn't know he was cut until long (in terms of a fight) after he had been. Another example is the recent news story which can be found here about the MMA fan taking on the knife wielding psycho in New York. I've heard several other anecdotes about stabbings and slashings and it seems to me that the common thread is this: if it's a sharp, plain edged knife you likely won't know you're cut. That's dangerous as all hell since you may not even be aware that a weapon is in play. From what I've heard about serrated edges, those you feel so at least there's that.

I've always done stuff similar to this with washable markers, but I'd love to try the shock knife out one of these days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr62B0fzlwA

Originally Posted by jspeedy

The use of the term always leads me to believe that you know what you're talking about. Please give any evidence or example of your experiences of guard,side or rear/front mount control leading to death or serious bodily injury (always!).

Did you miss the LEO tag or the qualifier on always?

**Gezere** · Posted On: 2/17/2011 6:44am

Originally Posted by DAYoung

What, in particular, worked?

No one thing in particular just experience from controlling people from their back and limiting what they can do like isolating the weapon arm while maintaining control and attacking, disarming, etc.

I liked the video, but I had a couple of observations the limited the overall "value" for me as a viewer.

First of all there were no strikes. It was strictly knife versus grappling. No big deal, but adding strikes does change things for both people. In my experience with weapon defense training, people do tend to be weapon focused, sometimes to the point that they leave dangerous openings to other attacks.

The other thing is whole object of the drill being the unarmed guy needing to disarm the guy with the knife. This changed how both people acted. Often times the unarmed guy was the aggressor, actively engaging the guy with the knife. Consequently the guy with the knife seemed to be more concerned with keeping the knife instead of killing the other guy.

Neither of things are really "wrong", but they are different from how I normally train weapon defenses. After watching the video I ended up thinking "that was cool", but didn't walk away any major revelation on unarmed vs. armed combat.

This was the initial weapons training. Keep in mind that vast majority people we deal with have never been in any sort of fight what so ever. So generally the initial part of any new training in MACP is to build a mindset. So by this point we usually just got people comfortable with grappling or just engaging another person unarmed. We start with introducing things and building upon it. Knife vs unarmed no strikes, knife vs unarmed strikes allowed, knife vs knife, knife vs M4 (you went black), etc.

This right here is the one thing I don't like about the Shock Knife. I have not used one, but the sound and shocks give you indicators as to where it is, right? I can see that as a motivator to train hard, as if it actually is a live blade but as Diesel mentioned, he didn't know he was cut until long (in terms of a fight) after he had been.

The Shockknife isn't perfect but it does what training blades don't, instill a healthy fear. Training knives didn't really make people react. We used a stun gun to simulate a knife. It made people react. The shockknife is the best mix of the two right now.
Also the whole "You don't know when you're cut" thing isn't always true. Adrenaline masks some pain but not all of it. Sometimes you might feel the knife sometimes you know exactly when you got cut/stabbed.

That seems like a dangerous level of overconfidence against someone who knows what they're doing with a knife. Hooks in, legs are getting cut. Hooks out, arms. I understand that you've had good results in the past, but it seems to me that's probably a combination of skill and good luck on your part and likely lack of skill on the part of your attacker. Obviously, I don't know the whole story and there's likely no way that I could. Even if you told us, that's only your point of view.

Its confidence born from experience. I do a lot of training with people who know what they are doing with a knife. I also know what I'm doing with a knife and I also know what I'm doing when I take someones back. Keep in mind taking someones back doesn't just mean I'm on my back. I can have your back with you belly down or you on your side. Either way its about controlling the body.

**gregaquaman** · Posted On: 2/17/2011 10:02am

So my thoughts are.
Do you throw out your primary martial art due to the risks involved with having a non knife focused defence. Say take up a knife specific as a side and hope that the lack of experience is countered by the martial art being weapon focused?
Or
Tweak a bit of knife focus into what you do hoping that the familiarity of fighting in that style overcomes the tactical mistakes you may make?

I have done a bit of RBSD and have played with rubber knives and I pulled a box cutter off a guy once. (But I did have help)

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 2/17/2011 10:22am

Originally Posted by jspeedy

The use of the term always leads me to believe that you know what you're talking about. Please give any evidence or example of your experiences of guard,side or rear/front mount control leading to death or serious bodily injury (always!). Your use of the phrasing "almost always" insinuates you are referring to more than one incidence of personal experience, please expand. How many knife vs. JJ fights have you to seen to draw this conclusion? How much experience do you have in jiu-jitsu? OR knife fighting for that matter? Just curious.

Damn! The strawman is strong with this one. Lets resort to the typical "gun is better than ___" defense. Situational awareness would do you better than a gun IMO, but if you're in a presumed knife fight chances are you didn't see it coming enough to draw your gun and load it.

Good lord stop:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65781

Originally Posted by Lord Skeletor

Well...I started my "martial arts" training around age 14 studying "American Karate"...after 4-5 years of that, I moved on to "Kempo Karate" (Martin Buell's system) and later to "Kenpo-Jitsu." I earned a pair of black belts and I did a lot of competitions on the local and state level and had some respectable wins/showings. Around 1997, I jumped onto the "BJJ Bandwagon" and drifted in and out of training--currently ending up as a "4 stripe Blue Belt" under Pedro Sauer...I'm kind of waiting for the right time to hook up with Professor Sauer so I can get tested for my purple belt. I've worked as both a referee and judge for various kickboxing , professional/amateur boxing, thai boxing, jiu-jitsu, kickboxing, and MMA events.

I'm a 16 year police veteran and currently serve as a SWAT and SWAT Sniper Instructor...I teach subjects such as "Basic/Advanced SWAT", "Officer Survival", and other related subjects for both independent contracting agencies as well as our local law enforcement agencies and training academies. I try to keep active in martial arts as much as I can, given my schedule....having recently began to screw around informally with some of the knife & stick stuff from the Filipino arts.

I'm certainly open to hooking up with any of you in the area who have some knowledge they would like to share.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99125

No, not saying he can't be questioned, the semantics/grammar argument you used needed to be addressed. Yes, it read very pretentious and that's coming from the semantics asshole.

**Wounded Ronin** · Posted On: 2/17/2011 1:21pm

It sounds like jspeedy has been studying to take a standardized test..."watch out for terms like always or never, because they usually make a statement demonstrably false!"

Good luck on the SATs, jspeedy!

**Wounded Ronin** · Posted On: 2/17/2011 1:31pm

It sounds like jspeedy has been studying to take a standardized test..."watch out for terms like always or never, because they usually make a statement demonstrably false!"

Good luck on the SATs, jspeedy!

**Permalost** · Posted On: 2/17/2011 1:53pm

Originally Posted by wetware

This right here is the one thing I don't like about the Shock Knife. I have not used one, but the sound and shocks give you indicators as to where it is, right? I can see that as a motivator to train hard, as if it actually is a live blade but as Diesel mentioned, he didn't know he was cut until long (in terms of a fight) after he had been.

How is this a downside to the shock knife? If someone pulls a knife on you and hits you a few times before you're aware of it, you're either done for or you keep fighting. Using a trainer that has no pain feedback won't make things better for you.

Have you tried using shock knives? I did once at the Dog Brothers gathering a few years ago. You know what's weird? I don't remember getting shocked a single time, except before the match when I tapped my own forearm with it to see what I was getting into. Maybe the shock knife is even superior to other trainers in the sense that you're talking about in that it can teach firsthand how an adrenaline dump can override pain.

FWIW, the Dog Brothers stopped using shock knives after a year or two. People would white-knuckle grip the handle, which would fire the shock continuously and kill batteries really quick.

My complaint about them is that they're 100s of dollars.