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  1. blackbrujo is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/13/2006 12:09am


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Target Focus Training

    Howdy.

    Has anyone tried Tim Larkin's "Target Focus Training" instructional dvds?
    He makes some claims that make me wonder, so I'd basically like to know it it's worth the money, because it is a lot of money!
  2. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/13/2006 12:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Five Animal Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found one thread on the site that talks about Mr. Larkin and his system.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...raining+Larkin

    Does seem like it's worth discuss here though.

    From their website:http://www.tftgroup.com/

    A Proven Yet Radically Different Approach To Self-Defense
    That Will Work For You Even When Everything Else Has Failed...

    “Faced With A Gun To Your Head,
    A Knife To Your Throat, Or
    3 Thugs Following You To Your Car...

    “Now, Know Instantly What To Do
    To Leave These Guys Sprawled
    On The Ground, Totally Disarmed,
    Writhing In Pain

    “And The Surprising Secret Is...
    It’s Really Not As Hard As
    You Might Think!”
  3. Jebuyaga is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/13/2006 9:48pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I bought a book and dvd about the principles and the joint breaking package. Expensive but I had money to burn. At first I was very sceptical, the ad's had all the signs of your typical BS RBSD program. You know, deadly navy SEAL fighting tactics, learn instantly blah blah blah... several pages long ads in magazines...

    Anyway, because of my doubt I bought the principles package first, 67 $ + s&h. It goes with the "offense is the best defense" line of thougt, which I agree wholeheartedly with. Defense I regard as for correcting fuckups, in other words, it's not so useless that I'd leave it out of my training, but defense is for when good old Murphy comes along...

    TFT however do not mention or show any defensive tactics in the products I own. Just as a note TFT clearly states that it is for "asocial (not to be mistaken for anti-social) unavoidable criminal violence", or in plain english; When someone is going to injure you and the only way you can prevent it is by attacking. The situations where you are legally permitted to use lethal force.

    The thing that makes TFT unique is it's emphasis on using the responses of the central nervous system (CNS hereafter) against the person you're attacking. These responses are the same in everyone and thus they are predictable. The key thing is that when an injury occurs (like burning your hand on a stove) a message is sent to your spine and it launches an instinctive reaction, only afterwards is the brain informed, and so it doesen't have a say. There are several levels to how a body reacts to a strong attack, first there is how the body is moved by the force, a strike below the navel makes the person bend forward, above it makes him lean back, and it also spins around it's centerline. After that comes the reaction from the CNS trying to prevent it's body from being damaged, the hands go to the location of the injury (I'll get back to this) and the eyes look at it (if it is possible). The idea is that when you know this will happen, you can put the guy in the position where your next attack will land. And to get back to the injuries I underlined, this only happens when you cause an injury, it's not a response to pain.

    They also have the concept of "the cause state" and "the effect state" the guy being attacked is in the effect state, the attacker is in the cause state. If you are in a fight, you are either in cause or effect state, not a hard choice to make.



    The "joint breaking" package (at 247 $ + s&h) was great, it simplifyed the concept of joint breaks/locks very well. The first rule is that you never attempt a lock/break just from nowhere, the guy will be able to resist and it'll be hell. If you strike the guy first (again as hard as you can and targeted -- hence the name -- to cause the crucial injuries) and get the man's CNS to launch reactions you can use the window to grab hold and start breaking things.

    They have these 6 base leverages that I think is the gold of the package. They are the 3 degrees of freedom the most active joints have along with the fact that all the joints move back and forth through them. In other words, one base leverage for every extreme a joint can move to. The wrist is susceptible to all 6, the elbow is only susceptible to base leverage 1 which is breaking it backwards. (BL1 is extension BTW) Of course you can snap joints in any direction you like if you're superman, but these are the limitations of what is possible for a human to do without help from big tools. I think combining this stuff with BJJ or JJ would be utterly vicious...

    As I said, the good thing about it is that they simplify it all. The base leverages are a prime example. I'll be looking at some otherwise complicated techique someone does and I identify one or several base leverages, I also see non-essential things and so on. Suddenly it's not so complicated anymore.

    I'd recomend it, but not for the price though... Maybe if you're a group of people, one person buy's it and you train together, saves money...
    Last edited by Jebuyaga; 3/13/2006 9:53pm at .
  4. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/13/2006 9:51pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How do you train joint breaking?
  5. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/13/2006 9:52pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm curious as to how they do it. I'm not mocking you.
  6. Jebuyaga is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/13/2006 10:22pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They do these "combination sets" which are sort of like kata's only with a training partner. You start out slow and speed it up along with your ability to do it safely. It's a muscle memory builder and a visualisation exercise. When you get used to seeing the reactions you also know when your attack was successful or not when it is for real.

    The "set's" are disposable lessons, built up from improvisation but adhering to the principles (of being effective). As for the training partner thing, one is a "reaction partner" performing the CNS responses that would be caused, the other guy keeps attacking until the guy would be either dead or incapacitated, (the goal they're always working toward is the person no longer being a threat.) They don't tap out, because if the guy on the street starts screaming and maybe tapping and you, out of old habit, let go, well, that's bad...

    You are not trying to make your partner submit - you are modeling the breaking of a joint to cause injury. On the street you don't want the guy with the knife to quit - you want to break him.

    To this end, tapping out is not part of the training methodology.

    You are not going to let go because your partner taps out, but because you choose to. Your partner does not need to tap out because you are not going to take his joints to - or past - the pathological limit. If the leverage is set properly, all it does is break. There is no need to "test it" by hurting your partner. It won't just be painful - testing it will cause injury.

    The best way you and your partner can give feedback on a leverage is to growl or grunt as the joint tightens. You can then visualize following all the way through to break the joint, seeing it in your mind as it would be on the street. But without injuring your partner.
    From the Joint breaking textbook.


    As for the questionable lack of resistance from the training partner I'll drop a quote again.

    You don't expect him to be standing still when it starts, and neither do we. Instead of attemting to model all posible initial states of all possible violent situations, we are choosing to start where everything changes in your favor - the point where you cause the first injury.

    If we tried to factor in all possible initial states he could throw at you - grappling from every angle, with one, the other or both hands (not to mention legs), standing up, and on the ground; punching from every angle with straight punches, hooks, uppercuts, (not to mention chops, claws, hammers and elbows); kicking with the foot, shin, knee, roundhouse and cresent; and we havent even gotten to every permutation of knife, stick and gun - We'd both just get exhausted, the video would consist of a googolof hours (that's a one with a hundred zeroes after it) and would cost the national debt compounded through all eternity.

    It's not as useful as you think.

    Instead what do all these bazillion possible situations have in common?

    Everything changes in your favor when you injure him.

    I think the training is good but I'd still vote for some adrenal-stress conditioning and some work in, say, Tony Blauer's high gear suits or something. Sure, once you start injuring him you keep going with the momentum, but if you're ambushed it might not be so easy...
    Last edited by Jebuyaga; 3/13/2006 10:42pm at .
  7. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 2:09am

    supporting member
     Style: Five Animal Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainRedbeard

    The thing that makes TFT unique is it's emphasis on using the responses of the central nervous system (CNS hereafter) against the person you're attacking. These responses are the same in everyone and thus they are predictable. The key thing is that when an injury occurs (like burning your hand on a stove) a message is sent to your spine and it launches an instinctive reaction, only afterwards is the brain informed, and so it doesen't have a say. There are several levels to how a body reacts to a strong attack, first there is how the body is moved by the force, a strike below the navel makes the person bend forward, above it makes him lean back, and it also spins around it's centerline. After that comes the reaction from the CNS trying to prevent it's body from being damaged, the hands go to the location of the injury (I'll get back to this) and the eyes look at it (if it is possible). The idea is that when you know this will happen, you can put the guy in the position where your next attack will land. And to get back to the injuries I underlined, this only happens when you cause an injury, it's not a response to pain.
    Not unique. American Kenpo and other arts like it use this concept extensively. I've found it to be largely false, largely because it is predicated on the success of each attack in series. Basing your next action on the assumption the previous action will be successful is a recipe for disaster. If you're even going to try it, you better have built in redundancy and attempt multiple things all with same goal, i.e. if you want guy to bend down you should kick him in the groin, hit him in the gut, and hit him on the back of the head. Requiring a strike to land with sufficient force to cause "injury", not just pain makes success even less likely.

    The whole injury vs. pain thing is a new one to me, and also bullshit. If the spine causes someone to react to "injury" and pain has nothing to do with it, then someone that has been knocked out or is in a coma would still react to "injury". They don't. Their hands will not magically go the site of injury.
    Last edited by Punisher; 3/14/2006 2:20am at .
  8. feedback is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 2:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The body's reflex arcs are not as influental as you think. To build so heavily upon such a shaky foundation is asking for a complete collapse under pressure.
    Tough is not how you act, tough is how you train.
  9. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 2:32am

    supporting member
     Style: Five Animal Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainRedbeard

    TFT however do not mention or show any defensive tactics in the products I own. Just as a note TFT clearly states that it is for "asocial (not to be mistaken for anti-social) unavoidable criminal violence", or in plain english; When someone is going to injure you and the only way you can prevent it is by attacking. The situations where you are legally permitted to use lethal force.

    The hitting first when violence is going to happen no matter what, I can live with. But those are not the same as "situations where you are legally permitted to use lethal force."

    They do these "combination sets" which are sort of like kata's only with a training partner. You start out slow and speed it up along with your ability to do it safely. It's a muscle memory builder and a visualisation exercise. When you get used to seeing the reactions you also know when your attack was successful or not when it is for real.

    The "set's" are disposable lessons, built up from improvisation but adhering to the principles (of being effective). As for the training partner thing, one is a "reaction partner" performing the CNS responses that would be caused, the other guy keeps attacking until the guy would be either dead or incapacitated, (the goal they're always working toward is the person no longer being a threat.)
    Again sounds like American Kenpo.

    You don't expect him to be standing still when it starts, and neither do we. Instead of attemting to model all posible initial states of all possible violent situations, we are choosing to start where everything changes in your favor - the point where you cause the first injury.
    But they never show you how get to "where everything changes in your favor"?

    Look, I'm not trying to be a dick. I haven't seen the tapes, you have. If you like them, they help you, and you think their good....that's great. But so far almost everything I've heard seen or read, indicates to me this is just dressed up American Kenpo with a jacked up price tag.

    At the very least, it is very bad insurance policy. Most people will never be in a situation where deadly force is required.
  10. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2006 2:52am

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainRedbeard

    TFT however do not mention or show any defensive tactics in the products I own. Just as a note TFT clearly states that it is for "asocial (not to be mistaken for anti-social) unavoidable criminal violence", or in plain english; When someone is going to injure you and the only way you can prevent it is by attacking. The situations where you are legally permitted to use lethal force.
    They do seem to be hung up on the asocial vs anti-social vs social response vs asocial action, etc., and all I can say to that is, "Who the hell cares."

    The thing that makes TFT unique is it's emphasis on using the responses of the central nervous system (CNS hereafter) against the person you're attacking. These responses are the same in everyone and thus they are predictable.
    Actually, they aren't. While this general principle helps an individual seeking to understand the peripheral nervous system they are assualting, it does not mean 'every' individual will react in the same exact fashion. Each individual has a greater or lesser degree to endurance to pain or injury and it is further complicated by the fighter with his knowledgebase and ability to project force to the person he is attacking.

    The key thing is that when an injury occurs (like burning your hand on a stove) a message is sent to your spine and it launches an instinctive reaction, only afterwards is the brain informed, and so it doesen't have a say.
    That is incorrect. You're referring to the somatic reflex which can be ignored with direct CNS input. If an individual is so inclined, he can leave his hand on the buring stove risking permanent damage, but to state that the mind has no say is incorrect. What can't be ignored is a multiplex assault on the peripheral nervous system, in the case of the burning stove scenario, you would run a high electric current along with it being hot. This would be an example of a multiplex assault on the somatic and autonomic nervous system i.e., peripheral nervous system.

    There are several levels to how a body reacts to a strong attack, first there is how the body is moved by the force, a strike below the navel makes the person bend forward, above it makes him lean back, and it also spins around it's centerline. After that comes the reaction from the CNS trying to prevent it's body from being damaged, the hands go to the location of the injury (I'll get back to this) and the eyes look at it (if it is possible).
    This is a fairly basic understanding of somatic reflex, however, it's much more indepth than that.

    The idea is that when you know this will happen, you can put the guy in the position where your next attack will land. And to get back to the injuries I underlined, this only happens when you cause an injury, it's not a response to pain.
    Let's see, if you struck a man and he's not down and can still hurt you he's probably in pain, but if he drops, he's most likely injuried. That's not really a revelation or a novel concept is it?

    They also have the concept of "the cause state" and "the effect state" the guy being attacked is in the effect state, the attacker is in the cause state. If you are in a fight, you are either in cause or effect state, not a hard choice to make.
    Effect= Getting your ass kicked

    Cause= Giving the ass kicking

    Problem= TFT individuals believing they'll always be the ones giving the ass kicking

    As I said, the good thing about it is that they simplify it all. The base leverages are a prime example. I'll be looking at some otherwise complicated techique someone does and I identify one or several base leverages, I also see non-essential things and so on. Suddenly it's not so complicated anymore.
    Every joint in the human body rotates on an axis, if you twist or leverage a joint beyond its axis of rotation, you begin to break bones along with ripping and tearing muscle groups. I don't see why it would require a huge explanation about it unless you're a complete novice in these matters.

    I'd recomend it, but not for the price though... Maybe if you're a group of people, one person buy's it and you train together, saves money...
    You neglected to mention the TFT hallucinatory training and coloring books TFT practitioners waste their time in, they seem to be big time proponents of these endeavors. Let me tell you folks something, if your going to waste your time sitting on your ass either hallucinating how you're going beat someone up or filling in TFT coloring books instead of training, you're not going to be the most capable fighter on the block. While I respect Mr. Larkin as a fighter, I can see from his news letters and their private forum, TFT practitioners or Master instructors for that matter, leaves a lot to be desired. You folks would laugh if I did a psychological analysis of the posted threads I read there. I could do it too because I downloaded the material from their private forum for later study. Sad stuff.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
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