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  1. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 10:26am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DaYoung dun used long words.

    Subscribing. I think this will be useful to refer to later.

    It'll help explain to people why what they think they are doing is bullshit, when what they are actually doing is fine but for reasons other than what they claim.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  2. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 10:38am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, one more question.

    Recently I've heard more than one person say they want to get into martial arts because of their philosophical value. DAYoung, being a philosopher how would you measure the philosophical value of a martial art (or the philosophical value of anything for that matter), and is there anything about the method we could transfer to measuring martial value?
  3. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 12:40pm

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     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How I see it:

    we need a robust idea of what martial value is. First, the martial arts are crafts. They’re forms of embodied knowledge, which can be systematised and taught. As in medicine, science informs this knowledge, but it is not a science itself. And as a craft, it has predetermined outcomes: the incapacitation of the resisting opponent.
    I prefer "imposing your will by violent means" so for me a system has martial value if it gives the practitioneer the physical and psychological tools for imposing his will over the opponent's will (or avoiding having the other will imposed over his) by violent means.

    By being more specific about circumstances, we can narrow the focus a little. When we talk about martial arts, we chiefly mean hand-to-hand combat with one or more resisting opponents. Then the question is: ‘What is the value of this art for incapacitating one or more resisting opponents in hand-to-hand combat?’
    There will be a lot of variables involved here: weapons? numbers of peopleż relative skill, strenght and size of the people participating in combat? affective vs (pseudo)predatory agression? military h2h, self-defense, law enforcement, sport? martial value in the most statistically possible situation or in the worst case scenario?.

    You should clarify if you are talking about the "martial value" of a system for a swat operative or "martial value" for an olympic judoka. They operate in different environments, some things will overlap but others won't.
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 12:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only thing I can see is that when you go to define martial value with someone that doesn't do a martial sport, the Sport vs Street or Fight vs Self Defense debate is going to come up.
    "Well your mugger isn't going to be wearing a Gi"
    "A judge won't be their to yell Ippon and end the match"
    "No one is going to stand you two back up for stalling on the ground"
    ect ect ect. All silly arguments but ones you will here.
  5. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 1:30pm


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    a system has martial value if it gives the practitioneer the physical and psychological tools for imposing his will over the opponent's will (or avoiding having the other will imposed over his) by violent means.
    Why specifically "by violent means"?
    Deception, misdirection and manipulation are all legit aspects of war are they not?


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  6. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 1:47pm

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     Style: 柔道

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    Why specifically "by violent means"?
    Deception, misdirection and manipulation are all legit aspects of war are they not?
    Yes, they are. I was thinking in writing "by any means" but I considered bringing Clausewitz, Boyd, Sun Tzu or another warfare theorists to this debate a bit innapropiate.

    This is still BS.net and we are in YMAS.
  7. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 3:24pm

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     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    There will be a lot of variables involved here: weapons? numbers of peopleż relative skill, strenght and size of the people participating in combat? affective vs (pseudo)predatory agression? military h2h, self-defense, law enforcement, sport? martial value in the most statistically possible situation or in the worst case scenario?.

    You should clarify if you are talking about the "martial value" of a system for a swat operative or "martial value" for an olympic judoka. They operate in different environments, some things will overlap but others won't.
    I don't need to clarify it. It's a case-by-case assessment. This is why I wrote: "The martial value of an art is circumstance-dependent."

    I used hand-to-hand as my example, but the concept of martial value isn't restricted to this.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  8. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 3:27pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    arts don't make claims. People do.
    Show me an art that isn't embodied socially, and I'll show you a hollow abstraction. When we say 'art', we're talking about the folks who practice it. And they usually make common claims.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  9. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 3:34pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    The only thing I can see is that when you go to define martial value with someone that doesn't do a martial sport, the Sport vs Street or Fight vs Self Defense debate is going to come up.
    "Well your mugger isn't going to be wearing a Gi"
    "A judge won't be their to yell Ippon and end the match"
    "No one is going to stand you two back up for stalling on the ground"
    ect ect ect. All silly arguments but ones you will here.
    Arguing with idiots is impossible anyway. But you can ask: "How, in particular, do these things stop me fighting without a gi, outside a ring?"

    Better still, you do precisely what Bullshido does: you have a throwdown, and you test their hypothesis.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  10. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2011 3:35pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    DaYoung dun used long words.
    Yes, but only to impress people. I wasn't trying to be clever.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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